Melissa Choquette: Founder of Visually Speaking

In this heartfelt episode of A Chat with Heart, Christina is joined by educator and Visually Speaking creator Melissa Choquette for an insightful conversation on neurodivergence, inclusive education, and self-discovery.

Together, they explore neuroaffirming practices, the role of visual supports in learning, and what it means to live authentically in a world that often asks us to mask. A meaningful and educational conversation for anyone curious about neurodiversity, personal growth, and creating more inclusive spaces.

Find out more about Melissa here, and to join her newsletter visit visuallyspeakinginc.com

Transcript

Christina (00:00.238)
Hi, welcome to a chat with heart podcast. I'm your host, Christina Martin. I'm a singer songwriter. I live on a dirt road in rural Nova Scotia with my best friend, Dale, and our Calico cat, Olivia. This podcast is totally just a chill chat with her. As soon as you tune in here, I consider you one of my little heartbeat listeners. I love sharing these personal stories and recording these episodes are great practice for me to try and calm the fuck down and just be myself.

Christina (00:56.44)
Hello, heartbeat listeners. Wow, it's been a few weeks and I'll tell you, some crazy shit went down. First things first, we launched a new record called The Essentials. It's up on Bandcamp now, on my Bandcamp, along with a new single called The Breeze. And Dale and I celebrated 20 years of making music and this 20 song compilation album.

at a house concert in Halifax on March 6th at the Syrup Factory it's called and we had an absolute splendid time. A huge thank you to our friends Ryan McGrath and Jason Vautour for joining us on stage and to Laura and Scott Simpson for hosting so beautifully and to everybody who came out. It meant a lot. We had a really good time. And then after the show

This is where things got wild. Okay, so my dear buddy, Allie, came to the show with her partner, Jen, and they went back to the hotel after, and they did what many of you probably do. You put on a little Love is Blind after midnight, and Allie's heart stopped. Like, stopped. Like, she died. And Jen had to start compressions right then and there.

in the hotel room. Next thing you know, Allie's in the ICU for days in an induced coma. Okay, fast forward to now, it's almost been three weeks. Allie's still in the hospital. She's waiting on a procedure so she can finally go home, but she is alive and she is more like herself now. And her memory is still a bit wonky, but like it's Allie and she's very frustrated that she hasn't been able to go home or leave the floor.

But holy smokes, pals. What a ride. Like for Ali especially. For her family. Her family flew in. For her friends and her co-workers. Mostly for Ali. But yeah, that happened. I want to say a big shout out to Ali. I love you. And I really hope one day if you're up for it, you come onto this podcast and maybe you'll share your...

Christina (03:20.142)
story in your own words. It does sound dramatic and it is. It is dramatic, I think. yeah, anyway, no pressure. But I just wanted you to know we're thinking of you and that folks, life is fragile and you got to take care of yourself. And Ali takes very good care of herself, even despite taking such good care of herself. Shit happens. I think the bigger message is

is life is fragile, life is short. then, you know, being able to be there for your friends and family when they need you the most is a privilege and a pleasure if you can do that. let's look out for each other. And we also started a GoFundMe to support Ali's recovery. So if you feel called to contribute, you can search Ali Miyoko Fry's recovery on GoFundMe.

Sorry, I just kicked my printer. If you heard that. Allie, she's an incredible human. Like she's a vet. She's a doctor. She's on the search and rescue team here in Nova Scotia. She just became, before this all happened, she literally just became a volunteer firefighter. And one important thing to know is that when Allie doesn't work, the only job she gets paid to do is the vet.

job, the doctor job, but when she doesn't work, she doesn't get paid. So the GoFundMe was set up to give her the space to truly rest and heal. And she is still in the hospital and she hasn't been able to work for weeks. Single residents, she lives on her own, she has a mortgage, has bills, she has doctor bills, student loans, and so it's a lot.

I think one of the best things that you can do for someone is just make sure that they can have that time to heal and rest. So that's what the GoFundMe is for. And she is so appreciative. Okay. What else is going on? Well, are getting ready. Dale and I are getting ready to head to Germany. Feels weird. I don't really want to leave home right now, but I know it'll be great once we leave the house. And I guess we are due for a little bit of an outing.

Christina (05:45.144)
but 12 shows coming up, including Berlin Dachau just outside of Munich in the Black Forest region and more. You can find all the details at christinamartin.net. And also I am heading to Make-Do Camp in September. So I'll be sharing a message here now from Laura Simpson, the founder of Make-Do Camp. So you can all get a feel for what it's all about.

Hey Christina, I just wanted to leave you a message. Thanks for registering for Make Do Camp. I am so stoked to have you there as a camper this year. Yeah, it's gonna be fantastic. I've just felt like a need for long time to do something back out in the woods, to make deeper connections with people, get off our phones. And it's a sober retreat, not because it's meant to be something that sober people do, but just have a break.

Yeah, we're just gonna have lots of high-level workshops. There's gonna be camp-like recreation, including archery and boating. And yeah, I'm just really happy you're gonna be there. And please help spread the word. Love you lots. Thanks, Laura. Okay, you can visit MakeDoCamp.com to sign up and get all the details. I hope to see you at camp this September. And today's guest, an old friend, a dear friend.

from my university days at St. Mary's in Halifax, Melissa Choquette. Melissa is an educator with over 15 years of experience in inclusive education, and her work is deeply shaped by her own experience as a late diagnosed neurodivergent individual. She's the creator behind Visually Speaking, where she's developing what she calls the Thriving Visuals Collection.

Tools designed to support all learners through thoughtful, accessible, and engaging visual resources. Her teaching philosophy is rooted in inclusivity, adaptability, and meeting students where they're at, recognizing that not everyone learns the same way and that visual tools can be incredibly powerful in helping things click. She's got a background in psychology and honors bachelor of science and a thesis focus on how teacher encouragement impacts student success.

Christina (08:03.586)
What stands out most though are the stories. Educators using their tools and seeing real change. Students connecting more deeply. Those moments where someone feels seen and supported. That's the heart of what Melissa is doing. You can sign up for updates and learn more at visuallyspeakinginc.com. All right, I love our chat with heart and I hope you do too.

Christina (08:35.534)
How do you clean your fidget? I'm just curious. Okay, good.

Melissa (08:37.644)
This one is like soapy water. Yeah, it rinses clean again for, yeah. So it's Dalarama. And whenever I see them, I buy extras. So that way can have them in different places. And if one punctures or gets old or lost, can.

Christina (08:55.746)
Nice. Listen, if we do keep this bit about the fidget, I do want my listeners to remember to wash their fidgets.

Melissa (09:02.912)
Yeah, the ones that you can, some of them you can't and it's yeah it's not a sustainable fidget for me.

Christina (09:10.414)
Yeah. I don't know if I could maintain the fidget. think I think I would just I would obsess over the fidget and then it would become like my cat. Like I'm obsessed with my cat.

Melissa (09:27.564)
Yeah. And that's like, we talk about a lot of this in education where it's like, it a tool or a toy? And it can be both, right? So it's how you use it. And so it's like, if something is engaging and helps you focus on whatever else you're doing or helps you regulate, then that's a tool. But if it's something that then you're like hyper focused on it, then that's not for you in that moment, unless you're using it to distract you from something maybe stressful.

So again, it depends, right? So if something like your cat would be great in a high stress environment, you can like pair that environment with your cat and that'll help you get through it.

Christina (10:10.158)
She is that for me. There you go. That's why we bring her everywhere. Do you and Mark have pets?

Melissa (10:18.222)
No. So do you remember me having a bird though?

Christina (10:23.874)
I don't, but please tell me about the bird. We are recording. I'm keeping this, this part. Okay. You had a bird in universe.

Melissa (10:32.916)
about spaghetti and then the color purple and so just whatever you think listeners are going to be interested in hearing. had a bird and I was 11 when I got him and he like I had him to only a couple years ago. A key was an old bird. Yeah. wow. Yeah. So yeah, his name was Buddy. And so yeah, thank you. He was like it was weird for me because

I grew up with him and then I got this life of my own and it was like, he came along for the ride, but like our interaction changed because I became a grownup and then I had children and like responsibilities and I wasn't in the home as much. So, but because like I moved around so much as a kid, he was like a consistent thing in my life. So it hit me really hard because like.

There was a lot to change and provinces changed and homes changed and schools changed, but like he was there for like, not as far as I can remember, but you know what I mean? Like he was, he's been around for a long time.

Christina (11:46.24)
Wow, so Bird was around- sorry, what was Bird's name?

Melissa (11:50.786)
Buddy.

Christina (11:52.482)
Buddy. Buddy was around when we met.

But where were you living when we met? So let's tell our little heartbeat listeners, we met at St. Mary's University. We were both in psychology, studying psychology. And where were you living with Buddy?

Melissa (12:10.638)
I lived in an apartment with my Nan, actually, and Buddy, for a year in Dartmouth. that was how, because what had happened was I was living with my parents going into university, but then my dad got posted to Kingston, which is where I am currently. So I decided to finish my degree and stay back for a fourth year. And so my Nan was like from the Maritimes. And so we just decided to...

live together, be roommates, which was very interesting. yeah, Buddy stayed back with me. So, yeah.

Christina (12:46.23)
my goodness, feel like Buddy was there during... Okay, so when we met, like during my tough time, Buddy was there over in Dartmouth. Now I feel even worse that Buddy's not around anymore. But I did want to tell you that I don't have very sharp memories from that time. And I don't know if it was because I was going through such a rough time internally. But what I do remember about us was we had this...

One day we met at the student, what do call it? Like the student building, know, yeah. What's it The sub building. Yeah. The sub. And we had this great talk and you listened to me. I probably cried. I was going through this rough time. I don't remember exactly what you said to me, but I remember you listened and you were so kind and something about that just always

that chat and you and how you always were our friendship always stuck with me and that was so long ago. You never forget, I never forget those particular feel like the way I sometimes forget what the content was, but I don't forget how somebody made me feel and you made me feel heard and hey, I get to thank you on a chat with our podcast.

Melissa (14:06.317)
Yeah.

Melissa (14:13.454)
it's so funny because like to hear that I made that impact, Humble Me was like, it felt like just like a privilege to get to have a conversation with you and you were, always, you've always been very honest and open and I really love that. And it was just, it felt like easy and social stuff does not inherently feel easy for me very often. And so when those moments do happen, I'm just like...

love that person putting them in my pocket. So, and I actually have this like long running thing where being autistic, me, I kind of refer to people as objects and I didn't recognize that it was kind of an autistic thing. And I don't feel like you're an object, but I feel like I collect people, like, you know what I mean? Which is that's like an object. So, the people where I'm like, I've just, I've kept you because you're just one of those quality people that I feel like.

Christina (15:03.136)
Yeah.

Melissa (15:11.158)
you know, doesn't matter when or how long it's been apart. The connection points are quite lovely and meaningful. And yeah, so.

Christina (15:19.342)
Thanks for sharing that. Well, thank you for being there for me. And I'm not quite a fidget maybe, but I'm totally 100 % cool with being an object in your life. And I think I can relate on some level to that as well. So let's talk about your background and your education and your work experience leading you up to becoming an entrepreneur. we're going to, of course, I'm so excited for people to hear about

what it is you do. But let's start with your background and kind of how it led you up to this entrepreneurial moment of your life.

Melissa (15:59.104)
Yeah, well, like you said, we met in psychology and so I realized I had, I jumped around what I wanted to be, right? You put on all the hats, but ultimately, like how the brain works and how we think and how we develop and grow has always been super interesting to me. And I think it now I'm realizing that it's about rooting and like figuring yourself out, like just understanding yourself and understanding everyone around you and like your identity.

I feel like is really rooted in our brains. So that's where it started. And then by the end of fourth year, I wasn't sure if I was thinking about doing clinical. did a thesis because I was thinking about grad school. I did the GREs. So it was like I was trying to kind of discern what was next for me. And then someone, I think it was because we were doing study groups, and I was probably like...

making a bulletin board or a poster. I had some sort of mnemonic device that I was using to help us remember, you know, whatever we were going to be examined on. They're like, you're like a teacher. You should be a teacher. And I was like, huh? And I was like, oh, actually, that makes sense. So especially even thinking if I was leaning clinical, it would have been like children. Like I was always wanting to kind of work with young learners.

or younger learners. So yeah, so then I kind of started to research teachers college and then volunteered. did and I've always volunteered in schools and classrooms, tutor like, so I mean, it was kind of like a duh at the moment. yeah, and then I became an elementary school teacher in Kingston. And I I've been an elementary school teacher for over 15 years. And I've

I pressed pause on the public school role. But throughout my tenure in the public board, I gravitated towards special education, which again, it just ends up, you just find your path. So spec ed really resonated to me just in terms of how to be inclusive and design universally, which I always wanted to do in class.

Melissa (18:22.114)
There was a lot of talk like in my early teaching years about how hard it was to teach to all the different neuro types or all the different disabilities or needs. And it was like really stressful to think of how do I like individually plan individual education plan? my gosh, that sounds so targeted. And so I kept like kind of trying to zoom out and think, how do I cast a really wide net and try to meet.

the needs of all my students. And then I thought, too, like, if it's good for this person here, why not? It might be helpful for everybody or most. So I'll just make them for everybody. We'll just use visual schedules for everybody. We'll just, you know, to have labels on everything with pictures. We'll just do look for us and make it really explicit and concrete. And we'll just do timers and pacing. Right. You know, so I was always kind of like moving in that direction. So, so, So that was kind of like

the education lens, the spec ed lens, and then me starting to have my own kids and having a family was...

Christina (19:28.672)
Three children, that's an achievement. One, half a kid, I think is a lot. Three, that's amazing. And neurodiverse. So is this what motivated you to pursue some kind of assessment for yourself? And let's, I'd love to hear about that. And because I think there are a lot of adults listening who are

Melissa (19:32.383)
One

Melissa (19:40.608)
Yes.

Christina (19:57.07)
either walking through this themselves or suspecting it or looking at other family members or their own kids.

Melissa (20:04.95)
Yeah. I was really curious about our kids because, and I love just the idea being curious because you just want to know to know, you know, like it's for the sake of it. And so it was never about like fixing things and it was never about, yeah, that kind of path. But it was like, we're intervening so that way we can like empower and understand and have all the tools we can to support the kids and know them best. So that started early on. So I haven't...

Three kids, oldest daughter, middle son, and an itty bitty. She's going to be six in a few weeks. So, and my oldest is going to be 12. So there's, you know, a good range. discovering, you know, some differences or some things that were kind of interesting or different about them. And sometimes things that were, you know, not developmentally checklist, you know, on milestone on the path. So they were like, you know, we wondered about.

what the implications were of those things. Also, paralleled with, well, I did this or this was like me. And so I did notice, like apples don't fall far from trees, right? So I did get curious about that. And so autism was one that was really...

I think pretty clear to us, and I mean, even as a classroom teacher, I did seem to really notice a lot of like those traits and tendencies, but they present differently in different people because they say it's a spectrum. And there's this Mark Shore quote, if you've met one person with autism, you've met one person with autism. And so to create kind of like a schema of like what autistic looks like is really tricky.

But we all do it because that's what brains do, right? They think, what does this remind me of? And that's autism, you know? So yeah, so it was tricky too to kind of like tease out, is that autism? But then, you you just kind of dig and learn and figure it out. Yeah, so once we kind of were on the path to diagnosing our kids, I started to think pretty clearly that I was. And so I, you know,

Melissa (22:21.932)
went in for an assessment, but I had to wait for a year to do it. yeah, so then went through that whole process. And then through that process, you know, I had kind of said, give me the full workup. Like I want it all. I want the cognitive profile. I want to like think of all the things. anxiety was on my radar like early on, like in my teens. So I already knew that I had those tendencies. So I wanted to kind of look into.

an identification if that was relevant for, you know, what that meant for me. And then what also kind of crept in was ADHD. And again, I had my own ideas about what that looked like. so that inattentive presentation wasn't something that was really like it didn't resonate with me. And then when I started to look at the inventories and then my husband did interviews and it was like,

So it totally made sense. And so by the time I actually like went through, it like a nine hour process. different inventories, questionnaires, lots of interviews, especially for autism, because it's so like qualitative. It's not like you just do a checklist. Like there's obviously inventories, but then there's lots of like personal history looking for evidence and stuff. By the time that whole, that all thing, you know, was complete, I came out with the three

diagnoses and I was like, okay.

Christina (23:51.734)
That's good for your money. You got a lot out of that.

Melissa (23:54.52)
I know, I was like, if I'm paying for this, I better have at least two. five. Yes, I want, yeah.

Christina (23:58.082)
Three or four.

Wow, were you shocked? Like how did you feel? Were you shocked or were not surprised? I know you went into this like with some curiosity and...

Melissa (24:10.542)
I wanted validation, obviously. thought that I was autistic. You know, at that point, was pretty concerned, not concerned, confident that I was. ADHD, like, definitely resonated with me. And then I wondered, like, how anxiety played a role. Now, there's lots of talk about how it might be even hard to tease out autism and anxiety because the inherent condition, like, is...

is anxious, like it's an environment that is unpredictable and dynamic and overstimulating and so anxiety. But I did get that generalized anxiety disorder identification and I realized that I kind of diminished it at first, like, and I'm also anxious and I have that generalized anxiety disorder, but I've been like learning again because it's a bit of a

It's a journey because you're shifting all the time with moving forward with this information and then what that looks like. It is just as big a part of me as the autism and the ADHD. So they all have merit and value. yeah, so I'm trying to really just embrace my anxiety voice. Like she's there, I might refer to her. And I'm like, come along, it's okay.

Christina (25:28.855)
Yeah.

I see you, I hear you. Right this second, I may not listen to you. Don't do I'm hearing you, but I actually am going to go do that thing, by the way. Well, so, okay, so this is fascinating. when you had What was the question? Oh, right. were... Well, I was curious about your assessment. And then once you have an assessment as an adult,

Melissa (25:36.078)
Don't try to shush her.

Christina (26:02.286)
And you've had your children, I'm assuming had been assessed as well by this point. For you personally, what was your next step? Do I treat this? Do I read more? Do I look for medication? What was your own personal... Because I guess I'm assuming some people are like, okay, well, I know and that's validation and that could be enough for some folks.

Melissa (26:31.64)
Yeah, I know. And I'm trying to speak for myself and not frame things as the way it should be done, because I know everyone has different ideas and what they're comfortable with, and I want to just honor that. For me, I wondered some of the same things. I wonder if this is like, now I have the diagnosis, I tie the bow on it, and that's the end of that story, and I just move on with the rest of my life. I also had wonderings of...

I wonder what areas of my life this will impact. And I'm laughing now because it's like all of them, like literally everything. I didn't know at the time, right? And then another thing was how much will I share? I wasn't sure. And now I'm super sure. I think, yeah. So for me, I am autistic. So I use the like...

not with autism, person with, I am an autistic woman and I have ADHD, the AUDHD. And I speak about anxiety as well, pretty openly, that is part of my lens. And so my approach is, I didn't fully understand myself until I had those diagnoses to use as a lens and to have that terminology to understand how all the dots of myself connected.

And so I don't think other people will understand me either unless I share that information with them. And I think it's about context, you know, and so we could talk about masking a lot and I don't know if we're going to like take a side quest right now on that, I mean, like, do it.

Christina (28:16.238)
I want a side quest. Let's see if I have some media that could bring us into a side quest. Like I have a drum roll or a transition to... How sensitive are you to audio? Some of these might be like, kaboom! Hold on. Let's do this transition. actually don't know what this is going to sound like. Transition into masking.

Christina (28:48.158)
that sounded, I hope masking is serious. Stop it. Let's talk about what is masking. Let's talk about that.

Melissa (28:53.045)
I think it is.

Melissa (28:57.656)
So masking is commonly used for neurodivergent individuals who are basically trying to reduce or eliminate any tendencies, characteristics, or traits that have them stand out in order to be what is neurotypical or accepting or to fit in. And so it could be anything from like,

making eye contact with people because that's generally accepted as like being social and positive and ways to connect with people authentically to like trying to reduce stims and not like flap or do anything that's like overtly looking different to not be weird, right? Like all these kind of like, you know, stigmas against kind of standing out in that way. Like scripts and types of ways of speaking, especially for girls.

to try to like say the right things, do the right things, look the right way, get a read on things. Yeah, so that's kind of like in general masking, even just like being in an environment that might be like have strong sensory like sense, sounds, lights, and just kind of like buckling down and not reacting to it, not putting on sunglasses, not putting like noise canceling headphones in or like not getting fresh air, getting space.

just to because that's where you're expected to be at that point, you know, just to kind of like, it's conforming, also like the convention of whatever like cultural society group, you know, expectations of whatever you're in and around.

Christina (30:36.866)
Okay, so like, can I ask you if, can I give you a scenario of my life and can you tell me whether you think it's masking or not? Yeah, let's do it. Let's get, you can send me the bill after, okay? Okay. Okay, I'm 11 years old. I still suck my fingers. It's very soothing to me. There's a scent aspect to it. this like these two fingers here, my middle and my whatever. What's this finger? A ring finger.

Melissa (30:45.652)
if you'd like me to.

Christina (31:05.39)
So I sucked those fingers until I was 11. And I recognized that another girl in school brought her baby blanket to school and was made fun of. And so that told, I was like, well, I can't, this is obviously not socially acceptable. I don't want to be made fun of. so I burnt it and I kept the ashes in an ice cream container until I recognized that that was very

very creepy and I, you know, like.

Melissa (31:38.542)
different. wouldn't like the words we use matter. I don't like you're telling your brain I'm creepy. Not creepy. You were trying to like cope with like that. I would say I'm observing like that's tension between what feels comfortable and right and what you think you should be doing. And so that was your solution at the time. I don't think that that's creepy.

Christina (32:00.888)
Thank you. Although if somebody had found the ashes in the ice cream container, Melissa, that could have been perceived as quite concerning.

Melissa (32:11.47)
Yeah, I don't know. put on trying to like sit in the... I have a really good friend who says, I like to sit in the seat of curiosity and not judgment. And so I think that that's like the antidote, right? Where it's like, I'm not looking at it. It's like, God, like what I am looking at is like, okay, now the blanket doesn't have the kind of characteristics and qualities that serve the purpose of making it comforting. That's right. I don't think that that was your intention.

Christina (32:37.538)
Thank you. You're so kind. Would you mind sharing something like a specific way that you masked, maybe even up until your diagnosis?

Melissa (32:52.142)
Oh, goodness. And I mean, we all mask in a certain like, to a certain extent. And I think that there's like some pushback on like what masking is, because they'll say, well, everybody has to like, behave a certain way. We all have social norms and this and that, or there's some things that should be thinking things and not saying right, like your filter. And, and I think like, it goes beyond that, because it's super depleting to mask, especially if it's things like

like stimming or movement or even sounds and the way you talk or where you want to communicate, that's for regulation. And so if you're hiding that stuff because it's not what is seen as acceptable for the moment, then that is actually like going against your nervous system, being like to able to access whatever activity or thing that you're supposed to be engaged in. So it's like it drains your battery like, you know, a gas guzzling car would, you know, it is not efficient. So

That's my little caveat. So if I were to say like an example of masking, because I still like I have to mask, I have to because I have to go out in the world. But I'm trying to think of like things that I used to do so much because I was really scared of doing the wrong thing. So I think I was actually an excellent masker, but it was like all consuming.

So when I kind of was in that like pivotal, like 12, 13 year old year, like I kind of got a lot of like social information, like slaps of like, don't do that, don't do that, don't do that. So I like learned how to look a certain way. I learned how to talk a certain way. And like, I stopped being honest. I kind of was almost like, like a PR campaign where it was just like, you're just...

kind and lovely and everything is fine, you know? And so that was really tiring. So I think that's kind of like my, was like a big masking approach to me. But however, it works brilliantly until it doesn't. So what it does to you behind the scenes is kind of like, well, that's okay. It's all for a good cause. Cause I had like a real solid, you know, day and I'm successful at school and people like me. And so that's one part of it. But like,

Melissa (35:15.222)
you also or I also would inevitably like make a blunder and then it's kind of like

How do I like?

Christina (35:24.59)
Would you then, obsess or like that blunder would take over and, you know, then the shame and then like, there be this terrible cycle because, my gosh, I slipped up and you couldn't accept it for like, I mean, I'm saying this as a relatable, like I definitely like have lived those times when I was younger, especially.

And I look back going, wow, you spent a lot of time worrying about something like that.

Melissa (35:58.35)
So I didn't have the lens that I was different. just, you know, I was just me and I would just have that social mistake. And then I'd be like, what's the matter with you? Like, how did you let that happen? You shouldn't have done that. You should have done this. Like, or like it was either I wasn't attentive or I maybe was like, maybe I just was like unaware of something socially. And then people were upset and I was like, no. And then, so then I was like, next time I'm going to be, and then I was like super attentive, which gets you to be people pleasing.

Right. And so it's not a great cycle.

Christina (36:32.558)
That's so great. concur. So, okay, so what is worked for you? What are some, I guess, big or small things that have worked for you to, I guess, accept and live? Live more freely, perhaps?

Melissa (36:54.848)
Yeah, I think because I've had the education experience and because I'm a parent of three neurodivergent kids, I've had now occupational therapy exposure, right? And learning about emotional regulation and having the tools and the terminology to use. we've made our lower level basement playroom really sensory friendly. And like...

There's swings, there's crash mats, there's trampolines, there's like sensory and fidgets and low lighting and three projectors and I lo-fi like so all these things are great. And then like you think they're for the kids or they're for my classroom or they're for my and then you're like, and also probably great for me too. And so like that's been like, I can embrace all these things. It's not just for my kids. so I like using a fidget has been something that it's like

yeah, this is really helpful. And can I, can I like go do a thing and do a thing? Could I do this interview without it? Absolutely. Is it helpful for me to have it here? Absolutely. And so, you know, just to be able to like have the agency to make that choice and say, this is good for me and I'm going to like visibly have it and talk about it. Like to me, that's like, that's me being brave.

and being like, this is helpful and people are going to notice. And so it's kind of like me standing up for myself in a way that, you know, no one's overtly being like, what are you doing with that? But like in my head, it's like a spotlight's on me and I've got a fidget, right? And so like it's optically, feels very bold.

Christina (38:39.374)
That's cool. In fact, I'm inspired to let my future guests know that fidgets are welcome, just because they are. Or even, I have trouble sitting for long periods of time and I haven't really quite fashioned out the right standing desk yet, but kind of encouraging guests that do have trouble sitting for whatever reason, that they can stand.

that we could take breaks, those kinds of things. Let's segue with another cool audio transition here to the birth of visually speaking.

Melissa (39:18.84)
Done.

Christina (39:22.03)
Let's do, do you want, I'll do transition five. Oh, oh, oh.

Melissa (39:27.916)
Laughing? No crashes. Because it's like sensory friendly, right?

Christina (39:32.104)
Yeah, sensory friendly. Let's see, what would be... Drum roll is not... Okay, let's see what transition five is. I can't promise it's going to be... If it's not soft and friendly, it'll be an example of what not to do. Sure.

Melissa (39:49.613)
No prep.

Christina (39:52.014)
That was similar to the first transition, a little jarring, a little doom and gloom. So I am now inspired to add my own Simbot to the media.

Melissa (40:05.546)
I'm something rain stick.

Christina (40:08.488)
I'm just learning about this in this Riverside FM that I use to record these, which I love to. Yeah. And so I'm going to upload my own soft transitions for the future. Actually, I just have Dale edit those and to be nicer as well. Okay. So I love hearing about your life and your journey and your diagnosis and your fidget. And all of this has led to...

Like everything you've gone through in life has now led to you becoming an entrepreneur and the birth of your company that's called Visually Speaking. So now we're talking about the creation story of that and you designing something that you wish existed. So tell us about Visually Speaking and my listeners, I know some of my friends who have some questions for you later on here.

have already started reading about you and are excited about what you're doing, but you tell us what is it that you've created?

Melissa (41:11.736)
Thank you for that lovely introduction. So this is my passion. So anyone who knows anything about autistic people, it's like, this is when we info dump. So like buckle up, right? Like I can talk about my passion all day, all week. So yeah, it's really, I feel super privileged that I have the opportunity to create a company that is based on...

everything that I care deeply about and like all I feel like my life experience and like the lenses and the hats I wear like my parent hat and my educator hat and my like, you know, neurodivergent person going through the world hat. I get to weave all that in and my strengths in like visual design are like, it's nice to be able to lend them to what I think is like really inclusive tools and supports.

But it started as seeing, like you said, you alluded to, there was just things missing from resources when I was teaching or things that my kids benefited from in the home. And often we as educators and therapists, we make our own. And there's other layers to it too, because there's lots of things online that are available. But a lot of things, mean, it makes sense if you're in a school and there's lots of people, there's like...

the management of the individuals that are always at play, right? So having like performance-based things for academics makes sense. like conforming things because we're all in a group and we all have to follow the group plan and having people kind of fall in line and be able to kind of like work with the group, that also makes strategic sense. So it is what it is. But what also can happen is that the approach becomes...

very like neurotypical leaning where it's like the person has to change and adapt and it's not super neuroaffirming. So that's kind of like where I really want to come at it from a neuro like affirming lens and when I create resources or what is normally referred to as a social story, I don't call my things social stories because it's trademarked for one, but for the other that they're not always super helpful.

Melissa (43:29.102)
The design and the idea of them are super helpful, can really be explicit and concrete and using a narrative to talk about things is great. But we also don't want to leave the learner out of it. And so I wanted to fill that space, but also like shine a light on why that's important and needed. Because it's not just about having the learner do what's expected of them, it's having the learner be able to thrive. So that's where like my

thrive thing came into play. And so that became like a bigger thing. I'm not just creating great graphic organizers that are for sale. I'm trying to like set a tone about how we engage and talk about learning. so like visually speaking is like I think catchy and wonderful. But also like it's layered too because the visuals are the visuals. It's the visual tools that support learning.

And we all use visuals, right? Signs, icons, things that anchor us, they help us way fine, they help us, right? You know, they enhance things, right? So, visuals are everywhere and they're just a good tool. But also, the speaking part is like the dialogue that we have about learning.

And especially for learners that are neurodivergent, there's usually a lot of stakeholders that are like involved in supporting them, teachers, therapists, clinicians, educators, the parents, guardians, like other support people. So we often all talk about the learners, but we look at them through our lens of expertise. And then we're kind of in our little silos, right? We have our own resources, we have our own theory, we have our own terminology, and we're not able to really like...

have some shared language and terminology and resources to use altogether. And so that's kind of like another layer to it where I feel like I'm trying to create like a bit of an ecosystem to have tools that everyone can mutually use, have things scaffolded and anchored so that way people can access them and they're not one-offs, like they're relating to different themes.

Melissa (45:46.862)
So I kind of have like this holistic learning model that I want to eventually like share with people. But again, I'm trying to, this is where the business part's coming in. I find it really hard. So I'm like, got all this great stuff to share with everybody. And it's like, I need to get to know people and have them trust me and give them some things that they're wanting right now. And it's like this bridge of like the dream of it being like this big, beautiful resource library and lots of like.

pathways to have really rich discussion, speaking, right now just being like, okay, how do we make this like a business that can grow and have different, you know, and from marketing and it's been this whole learning curve. yeah, so it's grown, but it's like, I feel like there's a need for it from all the different angles. And I just want to kind of make it happen.

Christina (46:23.598)
Christina (46:43.586)
I understand completely. It's tough. It's tough to know where do I start? Now I know that you are good at mapping things out. This is where neurodivergence comes in super handy. When you have created these things in your life to cope sometimes or to learn.

you've done that yourself as an entrepreneur, I find it quite advantageous, you know, because you're, you already have that experience in mapping things out. So you can kind of map out what your vision is. And you know, that that's still it's challenging, but you can you can't you're a visionary as well. And so you'll try these things. And then if you know, make an adjustment if it doesn't work out. But it's, of course, it's a

Big, big job.

Melissa (47:43.502)
is, and to be honest, you had mentioned now, I remember part of your other question was like medication and what do you like, how do you like, do you treat it? And do you and so I kind of went on like the identity like lane, but I also pursued medication. And so that really helped me with my executive functioning. And so I didn't realize how

Like my capacity for like working memory, for example, was so limited. And so I think like I leveraged my visual spatial skills so much to compensate for that. So I would be making mnemonics and things and having like reference charts and draw things. And it was like, but if you would look at like my notes from like a lecture or something, they were garbage. And I would like highlight things in a textbook and it would just be like all the same color because I couldn't discern what was important and what wasn't.

And my attention was always going and it was like, and then I would tell myself, you don't care. Like, why you so lazy? Focus, study. And I'd be like, I'm really trying, but it just, couldn't like, it wouldn't stick. was like in and out, in and out. And unless I was hyper-focused sleep, pulled into something. Yeah. Like, but I didn't have control over it. And that's one thing too, with like ADHD that I didn't realize it wasn't that you can't focus. It was that you can't regulate it.

So it's like I have limited choice over what I'm into.

Christina (49:10.35)
Hmm.

Melissa (49:11.298)
Thanks for sharing. she's so focused when she's writing her stories in her room and it's like, yeah, because like that's what I was like sucked into. like, yeah, I can't just like package that and carry it over to whatever else, even if I think it's interesting.

Christina (49:26.24)
Yeah. Thank you for sharing about the medication as well, because I too have pursued medication late in life. I was 45 when I... And it's helped with my executive decision making. I no longer... Because I just used to spend way too much time in... I love dreaming and scheming, but I also love getting things done and seeing...

movement and progress and moving, know, and focusing on one thing at a time and not 20 things. That adds to anxiety. So it's helped with all those things. And I know everybody's search for what works for you is different. So I feel very lucky in that sense that right now this is working for me and sounds like it's working for you. And before we get to a couple of

wonderful questions. Coming out with visually speaking and of course this and the decision too to be very open about your diagnosis and that's part of who you are and your work. Was that easy? Is that an easy decision or was it just like I have to do this?

Melissa (50:44.77)
I took a long time, because I dreamed up the idea of creating visual resources a long time ago, and I didn't really know to what extent I would be public about it. And so it was something that it took me a while to recognize and step out as. No, this is when you actually come out as you doing these things, and you're not anonymously like...

putting amazing things out here, you know, and it's just like, and it's just like catch fire and everything's great. It's like, no, it's like, it's the story that matters too. And yeah, so it was an evolution, but I recognize now that it wouldn't be the same without my voice and my perspective being like present with it. And I, again, I really, I really like it.

Like it was fun. went to a couple of like events for the first time and I got like a table and I had a few resources and things and it was like, it was a lot because again, like I put my loop ear, my earplugs in and I was just like, okay, this is really overstimulating and people were coming at me. But then I had this like, you know, when like time slows down and I'm just like, people are coming to my table to ask me about my passions. I was like, this is the best. And so like,

That was great. And it also was like people can connect with me. And it was like, I didn't have to do like small talk shenanigans, right? Cause I hate small talk so much. So it was just nice to come people and be curious and be like, I'm like, boom. we just would like connect and I'm like, I just love connecting with people. It's just that I do it in a different way, or I find it tricky to find those really like authentic engagement, like moments. Kind of like that.

conversation we had. Yeah, it's kind of like those those nice ones, right? So yeah, it's been it's been nice to be all me in it. It's been hard, though, because I also was like, I'm the classroom teacher. And then everyone also has perspectives of like what they think you are. And I'm like, you're so organized. You're so, you know, like, and it's that is one piece of it. But it's that's it's a snapshot.

Melissa (53:05.566)
And so it's been a struggle, like trying to keep that up and which is why being able to like shift and do some like self-employment stuff. like I did, I'm doing some part-time work with the elementary teachers federation of Ontario. do a workshop series and I wrote a resource or co-wrote a resource. was a writer for, about teaching autistic students in Ontario classrooms. So I've been able to explore that.

which has been really great. And I'm like, I would just really like to keep doing this.

Christina (53:39.47)
Well I think you will. This sounds, I'm so happy to hear that you're finding, I'm not surprised to hear that it's hard, but I'm so happy to hear that you're finding joy in it. I do believe that nothing great is ever achieved without some kind of sacrifices or pain, pain along the way. But that joy you're finding is what you keep going back to, remember that, oh yeah, that is why I do.

I think it does get easier the more you do it. even the hard things, like, well, I know that's going to be annoying and hard, but I don't care. I'll just do it because I know exactly what's going to be the result of this. It's going to be great.

Melissa (54:31.534)
Well, there's a lot of skills that I had to develop too. Like I had some templates for some of the resources and like a color palette designed and it was intentionally designed to be like not super saturated and overstimulating, but also that when something was like colored red, it would resemble for communication a red stop sign and not be like leaning to pink or whatever, because I wanted to have that communicative property of the visuals.

It's like all in Adobe and like I'm not a graphic designer and the design team that I worked with were really lovely and they gave me like a little web tutorial about how to use it. And I've just been like for last two years, like trying to become fluent in it. And so now it's getting really good. But like, I also wanted the level of the resource to be like just really high quality and...

when you assemble it to have it be a really nice experience that you can print from home. So yeah, it's like now that I can do those things, time is becoming more efficient. I use AI a lot and that's been really helpful for my executive functioning, for getting my stream of consciousness and trying to sift through it. And then it's also training it to catch me when I'm in my dream mode and systems mode.

And to be like, okay, now practically how do we move this forward and actually have some strategic direction? this feel like 2026 is the year where I like become a business lady. And not just like an educator who wants to share her passions and show some really great things that she's created. So that's been really helpful, like just bringing the tools together. But yeah, it's all hard, but it's super worthwhile.

Christina (56:24.27)
agree. Well, speaking of hard, let's do something that's not hard. Let's listen to some questions from some lovely people, some lovely heartbeat listeners, friends of mine and new fans of yours. Okay, so I've got three questions from James Mullinger. So I'm going to play it and pause it after the first question so you can answer. No, you have not.

Melissa (56:49.134)
I have not heard these questions.

Christina (56:52.814)
I was like, oh, should I share them in advance? But then I was like, no, she can handle this. I'm sure. right, here we go.

Melissa (57:05.24)
Hi Christina, so excited to hear today's podcast. I've been reading lots about the amazing work that Vanessa is doing and can't wait to hear you both chat. Also can't wait to see you and Dale this weekend. I have three questions for Melissa and I hope that's okay. Hi Melissa, my name is James Mullinger. I was diagnosed with ADHD.

A couple of years ago, I am age 47 and it has been extremely eye-opening and I am absolutely in awe of the amazing work that you've been doing with visually speaking and I have three questions if that's okay. What would you say was the most enlightening thing about getting your diagnosis later in life?

Christina (57:47.662)
you

Christina (57:59.374)
Okay, let's start there. enlightening.

Melissa (58:09.166)
I'm going to try to keep it concise. One, understanding everything before me, in my history, being able to go back through and then see it with that context and be like, that makes sense and that's me, so that's an aha. But then the enlightenment, I feel, comes from how it informs what happens next. And so like,

even in the last couple of years, because I was diagnosed just a couple of years ago in 2023, I just think about how it is going to impact what I'm doing moving forward and then being able to adapt, to make plans, to modify. then typically also go back and re-reflect, because I feel like there's these layers that unlock where you're just like, this also, and then...

all that also. So it's like, you know, it's like a loop where you just, so that feels really enlightening. So I would say that's been really huge. It's like, it's the past, it's your present and it's your future. And it's like, it just, it adds this richness to all of it.

Christina (59:18.462)
Amazing. question number two, unless I cut them off too early. Hold on.

Melissa (59:23.34)
My second question is, did anything in your past suddenly make more sense after you were diagnosed? A formative moment in life or something that you had had trouble reconciling with yourself, maybe emotionally or spiritually, and suddenly after being diagnosed with ADHD, did that suddenly make more sense?

Christina (59:49.216)
Okay, yeah, let's get a specific example again. People love that.

Melissa (59:54.954)
Yeah, OK, so I have so many examples. just my OK, this is a good one, I think. So when I would get classrooms ready in the summer, first of all, I wanted them to be just perfect. But all schools are different. All rooms are different. Spaces are different. So you go into a place and things are from leftovers. There's different configurations, different shelving. And so you have to kind of like redesign everything and try. I try to always optimize it, you know.

and I would spend like weeks in the classroom, but the way I would approach the things, like it was very fragmented and scattered. And so now I'm like, that is so ADHD of me and my odd-y HD, like, you know, realm, but it didn't make sense at all. And I couldn't figure out why I'd be like working on a bit of something here.

and then working on a bit of something here. They're like, oh, I need this thing and I go over there and then I wouldn't come back to that thing. I would now be in that thing or I'd be like, I wouldn't have a hierarchy of what was should be done first. Like layout and furniture. Nope. Let's work on the bulletin board now, Melissa. Like, or, there's so much gum on these desks. I'm going to just go at the gum until and without any time and know how much time is passing. And and I would always say it's done when it's done.

And now I realized that that mantra was because I didn't have an understanding of time and I couldn't create those benchmarks and understand and have any predictability there. And so now I'm like, oh, that's like a core, like how I would operate. It's finished when it's Yee. Which is why I would spend all the time and all the evenings and all the weekends doing the planning and the teaching and preparing a room.

Christina (01:01:39.077)
Hmm

Christina (01:01:49.984)
Instead, you could have had a vacation with your family or something.

Melissa (01:01:53.198)
Well, and like, that's the thing. Like, there would just be not any limits and, oh, I just got caught up or I just could just, oh, there was a parent thing and or or I won't say this example, but there'd be like times where I would like pour in a lot of energy. It's a bit of a like a joke, but also like a triggering situation from like my husband and I were like, that was not a great use of your time. I'm like, know. And I'm sorry. But like a joke.

It's kind of like we're laughing about it now, but it's like, oh, it's still a little sore. I'm like, can't believe I spent that much time painting that thing. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah.

Christina (01:02:33.433)
my goodness. Okay, let's see if I cut them off. No, you did. That was phenomenal.

Melissa (01:02:38.638)
And then finally, what has changed for you since finding out that you have already HD? And how would you say has changed the way that you parent being someone neurodiverse with neurodiverse children? Obviously, it gives you a whole fresh and different understanding of what they're going through, something which we didn't have growing up.

How does it change your parenting day to day, would you say? And also, may I just say how wonderful it is that children now, thanks to people like yourself, are getting all of the help and support that they need to turn this thing into their superpower, so to speak, all of which, of course, were not things available to us when we were their age.

Well, thank you both so much. And I can't wait to listen to the podcast. And Melissa, I can't wait to meet you in person in the future. And Christina, I will see you on Saturday. Thank you both so much.

Christina (01:03:50.222)
Okay, before you answer that question, which I can... I forgot what it was. No, I remember. Do you know what it was?

Melissa (01:03:58.188)
Yeah, there was like, was like two pronged and I feel like the interview has talked a lot about it, but the parenting piece, I think I will.

Christina (01:04:05.856)
Okay, we'll speak to that. But I want to say, James, I can't wait to see you this weekend too, even though this will air after this weekend. He's playing at Down the Road for me at the Oxford Capital Theatre in Cumberland County. And James is also performing in Halifax. Tickets are going fast, I checked, at the Rebecca Cohen in April. so visit jamesmollinger.com everybody. He's such a phenomenal, phenomenal human, but also

Canadian, British, comedian, living in New Brunswick now. Moved to New Brunswick with his family, his wife's from Quesbamces. anyway, so thank you, James, for your questions. We love you so much. And you did a great job in Oxford. That's my assumption. And thanks for coming for dinner. So yes, Melissa, tell us about how parenting changed for you.

Melissa (01:04:58.958)
So parenting continues to change. So it's an evolution. I feel like it changed with my elementary school experience, it changed with my special education experience, it changed as each kid, you know, we were curious and began that kind of, you know, discovery process with them. But for me, like having the diagnosis, which is, think, where like James's question was anchored, like I need to model

how to take care of my brain and explain what's happening when it happens. without getting like too deep into it, you know, autistic people and, and neurodivergent people, have meltdowns. And so that's hard to admit. And it's, and it's, there's a lot of great stuff about our creative brains and how we are just different. And, but there's a lot of challenges that come with that. And so I,

did not want to ever have a meltdown, right? I wanted to like fix that up right quick, but to realize that it happens, it happens for little people and big people. And then to make sure that you're trying to like not have them happen too much, because that means that maybe you've pushed yourself too much, you're depleted. And so to model the regulation and to like frame it as, and again, I've been working hard in therapy with this, like.

the situation demanded more of me than I had to give it. And so it's not about what the kid did. And a thing that I have to always remember too is like they don't have their fully developed frontal cortexes yet, right? So they work with their emotions brains and they see things differently. And so we have to be, you know, that brain for them, you know, that thinking and give them that context. And so I always say,

If things, you know, are getting heated, like maybe even heated from multiple members, not just like me all the time, but it's everyone like our house. We want it to be a safe place, but that does not necessarily mean it's calm and quiet and peaceful because there's five people with sometimes competing and contradictory sensory needs. And so like just being able to talk about how we have to share the space and acknowledge and validate someone's needs and not have it be.

Melissa (01:07:23.222)
like shamed or taken out of context, like taking it personally, right? And it's like, well, they're having, they're stuck right now. Maybe they're having, so like they're stuck thinking, or they're having some big feelings around this, or they need to process it. Like it's just that tone and creating space to spread out. Like we had this thought of like family events, what that looked like, right? And so I've been having to shift what family time.

look like. And sometimes the stars align and we all do a thing together. And other times that just isn't reasonable. And that's again getting out of what you wish and what is really what's going to serve your family members and being like responsive to them in the moment and not reactive. So yeah, that's like a whole lot. But it's like, it keeps evolving. But like to think of myself as like the role model that never shows

a sign of weakness or has any, you know, vulnerabilities or makes mistakes. Like, no, I am, I'm modeling it. And I talk about my challenges all the time and I cry a lot.

Christina (01:08:35.26)
my goodness. I think that's so important for everyone to see and experience, especially kids, because you don't see it, you don't know what to do. I love that answer. Okay, one more question. I can keep you a couple more minutes. love the bird part. No way. Buddy has to have a memory memorial here with this podcast.

Melissa (01:08:51.374)
for the sake of

Melissa (01:09:04.247)
Yeah.

Christina (01:09:05.166)
okay.

Melissa (01:09:08.152)
Hi Melissa, my name is Krista and I'm friends with Christina and I am on the spectrum and I'm diagnosed with OCD. And I have a theory that has been proven with research but I think it's more broad and that is neurodivergent people have the ability to communicate energetically or spiritually if you believe in an afterlife.

with other people, living beings, and beings that have passed. This research I mentioned is from, you can learn more in the telepathy tapes podcast, but essentially they look at non-speakers who are neurodivergent and their ability to communicate through telepathy with people. I myself

communicate with my friends pets. And it's a fun thing that we do. And I genuinely feel that people who are neurodivergent have an easier time being able to do this kind of telepathy and communication energetically spiritually. I'm wondering what your thoughts are on that. If you've ever experienced this, if you have feelings when you're around people or think of people,

Christina (01:10:10.487)
It's true.

Melissa (01:10:36.91)
you know, special feelings or insights and things that may come up for you. So I'm interested to know what your thoughts

Christina (01:10:44.065)
what your thoughts are. That's the way that cut off. Yeah. That's okay. That was fun.

Melissa (01:10:49.1)
Yeah, that's really cool. It's also a very different question. It's diverse. It's beautiful. So thanks for your question, Krista. So from my viewpoint, you have different ways of describing it, like a gut feeling and intuition, sixth sense. I've been very in tune with that growing up.

I would visualize a lot and sometimes the things that I would visualize I felt had like where I didn't have context or information about what was happening, it seemed pretty accurate when I would then experience the event. And so I don't really know what to make of it. I just am curious about it and I've noticed it. And so I definitely feel like

as what I like to call a complex processor instead of a delayed processor, I think we're taking in lots of information and I don't think we all have articulated all the different tools or things that we actually are taking in and processing. So I think that's where you're thinking about that, the energetic connection between people.

And I'm super fascinated in general with like the yoga energy and prana and meditation and affirmations and manifesting. I'm super curious about that and other people's spiritual connections and how it's like so different but also so like united and universal and what anchors us as human beings. Anyway, I'm going get too philosophical. Yeah, that was great. But I think it's really just interesting. I'm just interested, right? Me too.

And so, yeah, I feel like there are levels of things that I feel and process and get from other people or from like places where lots of stuff's gone down. Like, like I'll get vibes in places like hospitals have always been a real challenge for me. I feel like I feel the weight of whatever's happening there. And it's a lot of it's joyful, but there's a lot of it that's grief.

Melissa (01:13:12.462)
I always have felt really intense feelings and discomfort at times in places like hospitals or places where there's been like historical things like monuments or like churches where there's been lots of healing like the St. Joseph's Oratory, like those places. Whenever I'm walking through a place like that where lots of stuff's happened, I feel like a weight.

to it. And sometimes I feel emotional too. And again, I don't know what layers are triggering those feelings, but I certainly like acknowledge that they're there and I don't think it's random because I don't think very much is random. I think that's kind of like where I kind of come from. Like if something's happening, I'm not as like, who cares? I'm just like, no, like why? Like it must mean something. So yeah, like

on you explore it and and like report back what you what you discover. I'm never not learning like there's though there's no end point to this right like it's like we're just constantly trying to evolve and and become our best selves and like let's layer in some understanding in different perspectives like I don't see the harm in that.

Christina (01:14:33.598)
I don't either. I do not either at all. Okay, so the offerings. I want to just quickly go over those before I say my goodbye. This has been so much fun though. Because you have a website coming out soon and it's going to be WCAG.

Melissa (01:14:53.39)
Contents, accessibility guidelines. There's processes to have it audited, which I'm not going through, but the idea is that the foundation is there, that it will be compliant. It's been designed with those guidelines in mind. That's cool. And what's lovely is I'm learning a lot. And I think we talked about this pre-interview, but when I work with students who really rely on assistive technology and things, you can really see.

where the limitations are, regardless of if you have a screen reader or voice to text or whatever. If a website isn't designed for that person in mind, like it can be super limiting what they can actually get out of it. And so even just like the mobile tablet and like a web version, like my website's really designed well that it will work on any platform.

And things that are sometimes super cool, like animation type stuff, we lean a gate, like we don't do them because they don't translate well. Yeah. And it's sometimes just like things you just didn't know. And you're like, darn. When you say like learn more, like if that alt text is learn more and you're not providing context of what that does, then someone having that read to them is just not going to.

get meaning from it. It's ambiguous and confusing.

Christina (01:16:18.88)
It's a barrier between what you're trying to communicate and what they want to receive. And there are tools online. I don't have them off the top of my head that can help you in designing and or even using, you know, like Squarespace or yeah. So check that out, folks, because I know I went through the process with an auditor with funding from the federal government actually to have my website compliant.

with the WCAG 2.0 standards. And that means too, I need to maintain it. And there's some simple things I had to learn. Well, how do I do that? And so I had to be taught that because I had no clue. And now that it's part of my practice, it's not hard anymore.

Christina (01:17:08.75)
It's encouraging, it's empowering, I suppose. Not that I'm perfect at it, but it's good to try, that's for sure. Melissa, I adore you and I'm so proud of what you've built. I want to thank you for being here and for doing what you're doing. And my little heartbeat listeners, I'm going to put Melissa's website in the show notes so you can follow visuallyspeakinginc.com, what's coming down the pipeline, get ready.

Check it out, share it with your friends. And thank you so much for being here.

Melissa (01:17:42.092)
Thank you so much for having me. This was lots of fun. I hope it kind of tickled all the interest points that you were hoping to get out of the conversation.

Christina (01:17:53.952)
Absolutely. I'm just so glad. We crammed a lot into it. Of course we could have done five of these today, no. each have... Right. Yes. Goodbye. We should, we'll have you back though. Cause I want to know, I want to know like how things are going and then the things that you've learned and really between you and me, it's mostly my friends on the podcast. So like I just keep having you back.

Melissa (01:18:04.684)
part of the series. See you next week.

Melissa (01:18:10.36)
We'd love to come back.

Christina (01:18:23.15)
And it's this time where you can hang out. Yeah.

Melissa (01:18:25.804)
Sounds great.

Christina (01:18:28.213)
Love

Christina (01:18:32.91)
I don't wanna say goodbye to you

Christina (01:18:41.544)
I don't wanna say goodbye to you

Christina (01:18:50.222)
Welcome to the Heartbeat Hotline, 1902-669-4769. I'm the host of a Chat with Heart podcast, Christina Martin, and I'm so excited you called. Leave me your question, a suggestion for the podcast, or a comment about this episode. Please be aware your message may be used on the podcast and social media. Tell me your name, where you're calling from, and it's also fine if you want to remain anonymous. Thanks for listening.

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