Duane Jones - Art Pays Me: Heart, Hustle & Community

What does it really take to build a creative life that lasts?

Christina sits down with Duane Jones, founder of Art Pays Me, to talk art, money, community, injuries, basketball dreams, and the very real work of believing in yourself long enough to keep going. This one is about heart, hustle, and learning how to value your work without losing your soul. 🤍

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to A Chat with Heart
• 8:59 Art Pays Me: Supporting Artists
• 12:03 Creative Networking and Collaborations
• 15:07 Personal Growth and Overcoming Challenges
• 17:57 The Importance of Community and Connection
• 21:08 Basketball and Personal History
• 24:09 Injuries and Artistic Transformation
• 26:48 The Creative Process and Practice
• 29:54 Art and Business: Finding Balance
• 33:01 Inspiration and Life Experiences
• 35:47 Art Pays Me: Building a Brand
• 39:03 Audience Questions and Insights
• 41:52 Navigating Challenges as an Artist
• 44:47 Future Projects and Collaborations
• 48:12 Closing Thoughts and Reflections

Transcript

Christina (00:00.206)
Hi, welcome to a chat with heart podcast. I'm your host, Christina Martin. I'm a singer songwriter. I live on a dirt road in rural Nova Scotia with my best friend, Dale, and our Calico cat, Olivia. This podcast is totally just a chill chat with her. As soon as you tune in here, I consider you one of my little heartbeat listeners. I love sharing these personal stories and recording these episodes are great practice for me to try and calm the fuck down.

just be myself.

could break a day if we just talk about

Cut away, we can make a better day

Christina (00:56.846)
we get into today's episode. Can we talk about centralized heating and cooling systems for just a second? Because wow, ours is brand new and somehow already needs a full-time babysitter. I don't mean to sound ungrateful for this new incredible system, but is anyone else finding that these systems require like this constant attention?

I mean, we actually had somebody come to the house, a technician, and this is, no word of a lie, they said, you know what, because, okay, here's the thing, there was ice building up, sheets of ice building up on the sides of the device, which happens when it's snowing or like when it's close to like zero degrees.

Anyway, the advice the technician gave us was, you know what, when there's a snowstorm, just shut it off. And I was like, that doesn't make any sense. We need it on to heat the house so that we don't freeze and the pipes don't freeze. Why would, this is a very expensive unit. Like, you know, this costs taxpayers quite a bit of money. We now benefited from this home warming program.

as a low-income household. And so, like I said, I don't mean to sound ungrateful. When it works, it's fabulous, but there are just some things about it, particularly when the weather is cold and we live in Canada and it's a long winter. You can't just leave the house and not worry about it, is what I'm saying. Anyway, I do want my rant to be over now, but...

If anybody out there listening to this has a centralized heating and cooling system and has had this experience of having to babysit it, please email me or call my heartbeat hotline and please let me know what your experience has been like. Okay, otherwise I am feeling really grateful and excited heading into this next little stretch here. Big Shiny Tunes is coming up Friday, 6th and 7th in Halifax at the Marquee Ballroom.

Christina (03:18.218)
I am so looking forward to this. And then Dale and I and our buddy Hannah Molonson. We have a Valentine's show at Patchworks in Bedford, Nova Scotia. We're going to sing only my love songs. And then guess what? There's a big thing coming up. On March 6th, we are launching a new album. It's called The Essentials. And to celebrate, we're taking the denim sessions on the road.

Denim sessions, by the way, if you don't know, are the house concerts we have in our home where everybody's encouraged to wear as much denim as humanly possible. so we're bringing this on the road. We'll be having a proper new album celebration at the Syrup Factory in Halifax, March 6th. It's looking like a digital release. And I don't know when in the future I would go for a physical release for an album again. I mean,

I actually, I do strongly believe in the album. I grew up with cassette tapes and CDs and then DVDs and vinyl. But I'm also trying to pay my debt and be a responsible adult and realistic and practical and looking at all the data folks. You want to stream music, then I...

can't afford to manufacture physical albums anymore. Still have a lot of them we're sitting on and you can still find them at the shows. But this one's going to be a special digital album and I think that's okay. I really do. think I've come to terms with it anyway. And I know you will too. The cool thing about this album that's coming out and I will talk more about it in a future episode is that it's really, it's not a greatest hits because I don't have any hits.

Really. But it's, it is an album to celebrate the work that Dale Murray and I have done for the last 20 years. And it's, it's an album of a collection of songs that resonate with us, that we love playing, that fans seem to like, that we get more requests for. And, and so I'm really excited about it. And we have a brand new single.

Christina (05:45.656)
that Dale and I wrote together that's coming out. It'll be on the Essentials album. More about that in the future. Okay. So also Germany tour is coming up April 16th to May 2nd. It's happening. All the dates are up on my website, christinamartin.net if you want to come and hang out in real life. And outside of performing, honestly, I am just taking care of business and pleasure. And by pleasure, I mean songwriting, podcasting.

visiting my mom and friends, chilling with my best friend Dale and our cat Olivia. I like to exercise. I've been doing a lot of singing, rehearsing, you know, all the good and kind of boring, also grounding stuff. It is so special getting to spend even just a small pocket of time, like an hour, getting to know somebody better. And today I want to shine a light on a very cool human, Dwayne Jones, founder of Art Pays Me.

Dwayne is someone who genuinely cares about artists being supported, respected and paid for their work. Art Pays Me is all about helping creatives understand their value, build sustainable careers and navigate the business side of making art without losing their soul in the process. I love it. This was such a grounding, honest and encouraging conversation and I am super happy you're here for it. So let's get into it.

Christina (07:16.942)
Happy New Year!

Happy New Year to you too.

Yeah, I was in Toronto, had to leave early because of the snowpocalypse that was happening there and here.

Was, is there any secret, you know, business or creative happenings in Toronto that you're willing to divulge on the podcast? What were you doing there? It's not in my business, but tell me.

I was, I did DesignTO, which is like, I guess somewhat like Nocturne, I guess, in terms of like, it's like a design, they tied it into design week in Toronto and there was an interior design show happening. But DesignTO was like, they take over these different venues and you as an artist or designer can like set up art, different art or design exhibits.

Duane (08:13.912)
things that like challenge people to think. Ours was more on the art side, but a lot of them are just kind of like industrial designers doing cool things or, you know, whatever. But you have to like apply and our, did a joint exhibition with Andrea Shane Jackson from here who does textile art. And we did like work commenting on our experiences with basketball and how they.

It was fun. It was really, really cool. And it felt like, yeah, we went to this launch party and ran into all these people that we knew. So I'm like, man, I feel like weird. I'm in Toronto and I'm still seeing people that like, that I know. It's odd.

Like from Halifax or from Nova Scotia?

Yeah, Omar Gandhi was there, who's an architect who's based here. then Jana Makalik, who was the interim NASCAR president for a bit. She was there. And then I saw another dude from Halifax, Deng. There's a Newfoundland artist that we met. And then Kipos from... She's... Man, I don't forget her real name. Sorry. I always know people from Instagram. But she was there. So it was just like... And then I met all these other Ontario people too, like...

This crazy furniture firm like called Moi, they like, we ended up hanging out in their booth and they liked us. So they were like, yo, come hang out with us. And it was it was fun vibes.

Christina (09:48.226)
That's so fun. sounds like I was thinking the other day about how like business or people who work at corporations or whatever, oftentimes get to go on these corporate, you know, trips and it's like the big thing of the year. But they have to withstand these like really boring seminars and talks a lot of the times. But when there's a music conference or an arts conference or event, big event, I feel like it's...

that much more exciting because the presentations are not the exhibits are not super boring in Monday.

No, yeah. Yeah, it was like all famous designers speaking or like, you know, I mean, was, there was a lot of sales people, but the sales people were fun. So it wasn't like they were just trying to like, if they realized we didn't have any money, they still were like, yo, cool. And they still wanted to talk to us and hang out with us. And then I saw like Steve Sabados, I think, interior design, like TV guy. This was like, this is so weird.

That's so cool. Do you go to a lot of things like that?

No, was my first time. Andrea did this before, so she kind of knew what to expect. But this is the first time I've taken my work and exhibited it outside of the province. So it was a big learning curve, super expensive. We applied for a bunch of grants, so hopefully we get some of that money back. for the experience of it, and I've been saying I want to take my career

Duane (11:28.97)
or think bigger with my career and this was kind of like a step in that direction, I guess. So, yeah.

Yeah. Well, if you ever want to chat on the side about like exporting, I think you probably are already familiar with the exporting grants, but that's one thing I learned in the last decade or so is, that oftentimes there's more funding for artists and creative industries to go outside of the province. You know, and there's still, it's not like it's all, it's not like it's a hundred percent covered, but, you know, there are

creative ways to make it, you know, either break even or pay back in the future. and, and that's, one of the reasons I was able to, and I am able to tour sometimes, but like, get a lot of my funding through the creative industries, which is the same, I think, funding through the province that you qualify for as well. And, so yeah, we, can chat about that.

Yeah, I love nerding out on that stuff. You know, it's helpful for everybody and it's not something like I learned. I didn't find it out in the beginning as a musician talking to other musicians. I found out about it through talking to business people or stepping outside of just what's offered within the music industry. Yeah, actually, well, this is first of all, welcome to a chat with our podcast. I've been wanting to have you on here.

Since we met, let's talk about how we met because I mean, I think we first met, we went out for coffee.

Duane (13:08.075)
Yeah, that was first time you met in person,

Yeah. And I think for me, I got this, like, I started seeing you pop up on my socials. I started following you. I was like, Art Pazney, what's this? What's this dude? What's about what's going on? And I just kind of got a sense. I was like, this would be a really cool person to meet. and then I reached out, I think, and then we made it happen. Is that accurate? Or did I just make all that up?

It sounded about right, but I feel like it was mutual. I remember following you and thinking, she's cool. She's doing cool music stuff. She's got a good vibe and aesthetic and energy. And then I remember we had mutual friends. I keep thinking of Kristin Harrington. I don't know why.

Well, because she's a connector, her and Mike, Mike and Kristen, the podcast and the Make It podcast. actually, yeah, so like that was another thing at the time I was like, you were on my radar and then you were on their podcast. then wait a minute, did we first meet briefly at their party where they get their podcast guests together?

That's what I'm trying to remember, which came first, which if it was us meeting there or if we met for coffee, but I think we met for coffee first.

Christina (14:31.064)
and then we didn't talk at their party?

Yeah, like we didn't really talk that much at the party and it was...

Not because I didn't want to. I think I parked myself on the couch and I was like, all right, I'm here. Do you, I'm actually nervous at a lot of parties. This might sound weird because we just had a party video that you were in and, but at a lot of parties where like, I oftentimes will just find the cozy chair and then just see what happens, but I don't usually go around a lot. feel like I'm going to just interrupt people. What are you, what are you like at parties?

Are you like just gregarious and...

No, I've become an omnivert. Actually funny, like I saw somebody who was like a friend from Bermuda who knew me when I was like 18 and she came out to the exhibitions and stuff and we were talking and she was like, you're so much more low-key and I was like, I thought that I was more outgoing back then, which is crazy to me.

Christina (15:34.91)
when you were a kid or when you were like growing up in Bermuda.

Like yeah, she knew she knew me post high school when I was just starting to think I was the shit I had this like small window of time where I was like, I'm not the nerd anymore I'm like I started shaving my head. I was like lifting weights. I thought I was like a cool dude So I had a moment of like high confidence and then I kind of away

What stole it what what moving to Canada did that we do we steal that okay?

No. think moving to Canada helped me find myself a little more. yeah, it's just, it's weird. But I like to, I've learned that I need to just be okay with being who I am and know that I'm not for everyone. And I think that's made me feel better. But I know that like the fake party for the video, I didn't know as many people and I tend to latch on to like...

nice.

Duane (16:38.734)
couple people that I get good vibes from sometimes and I don't necessarily want to do that either because I don't want to like overwhelm them but there are... that too. Yeah, Krista and Ali. I kind of like longed on to them a little bit.

that too.

Christina (16:55.406)
I don't think they minded. I think they did the same thing. I think they actually would have would think that that's what they did to you with you. Like they might think that, oh, I just latched on to him because I've, know, and also I was throwing people in a room full of people that they're not super familiar with. I think that's a very natural human thing to do. it ended, the results were good. Nothing but

good memories from.

Absolutely, and I thought you were a great host like I didn't feel like you ignored me I felt like you like made me feel welcome and like you were like high-energy and happy and all that kind of stuff and I got to meet Dale like I met him briefly at Kristen's but like I got to meet him more like in this scenario and then like yeah people that I hadn't seen

Lisa. Lisa, yes. Yeah, And Steph, knew Steph as well, Steph Purcell?

I her online, I think, but I had never met her in the real world.

Christina (18:04.002)
Well, the real world was that music video, right? Yes.

But I did know DIY Mom, because she was on my podcast. Yes, I hadn't met her in real life either. was fun seeing how she is in real life versus like podcast version.

Yeah.

Christina (18:24.342)
She's a lot of fun. A lot of fun as are you. can imagine if I would have invited you and then ignored you? That would have been a real jerk move.

Well, you know, like I've been in situations where I've been invited to stuff and I'm like all excited to be there and then I'm like, I don't know anyone and then I feel like a knob. So yeah, that does happen.

It can happen. It's funny because, most of my life I've had parties. If I've had a party at all, I don't usually anymore, but back when I did have parties and I would invite, I won't say the most, I don't mean the most random people. They were all close friends of mine, but we never typically got together. I knew them from, they were good friends from just different classes or scenarios and like, but all.

just really good people. And I remember when Steph and I were putting together the video guest list and people we wanted to invite. that was like, we were like, they have to kind of meet these criteria because we, you know, you can't control every scenario. You might invite somebody and they just don't feel comfortable and whatnot. That's, know, but we kind of get a sense for that. you just put a bunch of people in the same room that you know are good people. like, usually

It's only good results usually, you know.

Duane (19:55.598)
Yeah, well, and thank you for having me on the show. But to that point, like, that's what my exhibition in Toronto was like, or our exhibition, because like, Andrea is a quilter, and textile artist, so she had like these older ladies that were just enamored by what she does, who came out. And then I had some like basketball dudes that I know who came out.

And then I had my younger cousins that live in Toronto there. And then there was like other really super artsy people. There were some academic profs and stuff like that. We just had like this crazy mix of individuals who all came together and you just, I love that stuff.

Yeah, me too. That's my fave. That alone is a cool inspiration for any creative project, I think. So tell me about your basketball and your experience with your involvement with, like, do you still play? Did you play in high school? Were you starting quarterback? That's not basketball. That just shows you right there that obviously I don't play basketball.

Were you the star quarterback of the basketball team?

Dwayne? Certainly. No. I grew up in Bermuda where football or soccer, as people like to call it here, like football and cricket, those are the sports that you play. And we all just kind of played them in our backyards or whatever. like, I wasn't good enough to or cared about enough to really play in school. The only thing was really interested in was martial arts. So I actually started doing martial arts fairly young.

Duane (21:41.371)
and you know...

I didn't make the team early in that either, but I trained, I worked hard, and then I got really athletic after doing that. And then at about like 13, we were playing basketball in high school. And that was the first time I got introduced to it. And yeah, I was terrible at it, but like there was something about it that I was like, I'm not good at this thing, but it's so fun. I just want to do it every day. And I played every day and every day, like until...

I got somewhat decent and then tried out for the team. I don't think I made it. But then I think I eventually did make it, but then I would only play like 30 seconds a game and stuff like that. But I was still just super obsessed with this game. So like in the summer we put together our own teams and we get to compete and play. But I also like, I was, I had this like weird

competitive psycho side to me where I would go to this, we call it street ball, so I'd go to the courts every weekend and I'd hunt anybody that I knew played for my school or another school. I'd be like, this is my time. I'm making an example out of you guys. But it was just like, but I, was something about, and I realized now it's like, I think it's my ADHD and everything else, like,

as soon as I would get into these situations where I'm in a practice or I'm in a game with the ref or something like that, like I would literally forget how to play the game. So I would just not play well in those situations. And I think as I got older, I figured out how to manage that better. But that said, my basketball career never really panned out. And then I had the choice to go to school.

Duane (23:39.158)
I did apply, I applied to three schools, NASCAD. Well, I played, actually I played basketball at Bermuda College, which is not a great accomplishment. They just play in the local men's league because there's only one college in Bermuda. So there's that. But, I went to, I wanted to go to art school. I applied for Ontario College of Art and Design, Nova Scotia College of Art and Design and Savannah College of Art and Design in Georgia. They had a basketball team and

One of my teachers from Bermuda College went there and suggested that school. So I applied to all three, only NASCAD replied. So I like, I guess that's the end of my aspirations and came to Nova Scotia.

Wow. That's and then do you still play or was that it?

I still play. So then it became like, again, just playing on the side and every time I try to like, prove I should be playing for University Bowl, even though I'm just a NASCA guy. And it's kind of stuck with me. I still obsessively try to get better and I'm in my 40s. But I've had, think in 2020, had the COVID was

was like starting to somewhat come under control and they started like letting people do activities again. I joined the men's league at like 39 and was playing well. I was dunking. I was doing all the stuff that I used to do and I was like, yeah, I'm old guy. I'm still like able to do it. And then I ruptured my Achilles tendon in like the third or fourth game in and that's a year long.

Duane (25:30.018)
you gotta sit out for a year. So that... Yeah, that'd mess me up.

Sorry dude.

Yeah, came back then 2023, feeling strong again. And then I ruptured my patellar tendon in my knee. That's another year. And I had staph infections, all this stuff. But at that point I was like making, I decided like, I really want to channel all of that anxiety and darkness that I was experiencing into art. So actually a lot of the art that I...

presented in Toronto and going forward is like a representation of my recovery through those, that knee injury and how it kind of made me feel and all that kind of stuff.

Yeah, dude, that's awesome that you were able to transform that because that's a lot. I'm not someone who likes to sit still. even though I fell off a horse last year and landed on my tailbone and it was just a month of but like I've never had anything like what you're describing. And I imagine I don't know what I would do. I guess I might read a lot more if I couldn't do that physically. I've just you you do I don't take it for granted, but like

Christina (26:48.142)
It's something you do every single day. It's one thing I can't imagine, even since I was 12 or 11, I've exercised, I won't say every single day, but it's the one thing I can't quit. I'm not an obsessive. Well, I like mixing it up. I like doing yoga sometimes. I like jogging when the weather's nice. We'll go for even just an hour long hike.

Pilates, like cardio. I mean, I used to do like the Jane Fonda. I still do the Jane Fonda workouts. Who am I kidding? Karen Voight was my hero. Yeah. So I just mix it up. I just mix it up. like, just let, I have to move my body. Like sitting is the worst thing for my hips and my, so I feel for you, buddy. Like, how are you right today? Are you?

Do you feel like recovered now?

I'll never be back. I guess they were like scared to tell me, but there was worry I might never walk properly again. it was like, you know, the ability to run and jump was a thing. But I think for me, I did something that most people don't do. And I was just obsessively following the physiotherapy regimen both times I was out. And like,

It was literally every single day you had to do these. Sometimes it felt like nothing, like, you know, just tiny little movements, but like you just had to do them. And then I, after a couple of months or weeks, sometimes you're like, I'm getting a little stronger and I can do this again. I can do that again. And so that's been my thing. I have to still kind of do it. And like, now that I'm playing again, I get lazy and don't feel like doing the physio, but

Duane (28:45.738)
I can play. So there's that.

Isn't that a great analogy for life and like all we do, like I find practicing music, like my songs for show, like I, I don't, I, it just takes me a lot to wanna, I don't like practicing. do it. We do a little bit almost every day and then we take like a week off after a big stretch of shows or something. Then we're like, fuck, we got to get back at it. Like, because it keeps you.

kind of in the game. And you notice over time, but it can be so boring.

I always wondered about that with musicians, is like, do you just like jump in and because like I find if I notice it, I play once a week now and if I don't do some kind of work outside of when I play, my game just gradually degrades. It just happened. It's so strange. You think you figured it out, but you still have to keep practicing.

I bet there's some artists that don't have to or don't. I remember asking Rene Smith, is just so, she's high up there on my iconic figures list. Do you do warmups? Do you practice? And she's like, no, I just go into it. However, the difference between, Rene grew up in a musical family, very involved in music as a part of the church. It's sort of like, I think, just a daily...

Christina (30:23.592)
or very often grew up with it and it's sort of ingrained in her and that wasn't my experience. So I always feel, I think everyone might be a little bit different, but I think I definitely need to practice and over prepare so that I can feel confident and be spontaneous. that I think comes from my insecurities of like starting late and I didn't grow up with music and singing in front of people and my insecurities and

But some people who grew up with it and like, or are just like, you know, child prodigies and whatnot, maybe they don't feel they need to practice or maybe they're just playing music all the time. I don't know, but it is hard work for me. I don't know.

No, I think that's the same with me. Like with martial arts, basketball, even art, to even design, like all of it, I always, I had to come to terms with, I probably just have to work harder than everyone else to maintain a certain level. And if I want to be even better, then I have to be prepared to do extra, extra. And that sucks sometimes, but it is what it is, I guess.

Yeah, this is us. like, it's like you love what you, you do love elements of what you do and that's why you do it. Or you grab onto those things about what you do that you love. And you're like, this is the reminder why I do, why I work so hard. Like, cause it is, it doesn't come as easy for some. But I would like to hear a little bit more about your creative background, like growing up early memories with creating and what is it?

Like, what was it that made you want to take this, what I call, what I'm assuming is your path with heart?

Duane (32:11.35)
Yes, for sure. I've been an artist for as long as I can remember. And okay, I have a memory and it's, I can't even believe I remember this. Maybe it's two bros.

No, do it. Yes, we like gross.

Okay. So I just started doing murals probably in the last four years or so, something like that. But it turns out I actually did one a long time before that. and I can't believe I actually remember this. Or I don't know if my mom's just told it so many times. But apparently when I was a baby, I took a diaper off and smeared it all over a wall.

my God.

Yeah.

Christina (33:05.422)
my, was it, did your mom know it was art at the time?

No, no, I don't think she thought it was art. then, you know, me, in hindsight, I'm like, mean, you know,

Dwayne, I think this mural might work today. mean, depending on what you're trying to represent. Wow. okay. Well then where there's some other post-diaper smear mural, other kind of pivotal experiences with teachers or family members.

Let's hear it. I just always like to draw. I loved, I would look through books and just get so, I just remember that feeling of like super excitement when I saw a style that I liked and I tried to like emulate it in some way. And I remember like when I was like five or six, I made this thing I called the fire truck book and I like.

drew fire trucks and stuff and it was like on my fridge for a long time. And every time I had like a book report or something to write, it would always be like super heavily illustrated. And I tried to write a, a comic book at some point in high school. I thought that back then I wanted to be a comic book artist. cool. And tried to figure that out. But

Duane (34:43.926)
I also like Bermuda is a super like the tax haven. It's a very economically driven society. So I always liked money and I was like, well, I think I'm going to be an accountant. So that was actually what I tried to pursue. the school I got into is like the type of school you have to take an exam to get into. And I got in, but my grades were not

great in accounting. they basically told me I couldn't continue taking it anymore. So all I had was art. That was the only thing I was really good at. So I just leaned into it. And yeah, my art teacher was really supportive. And it like I almost didn't graduate high school, it got like that bad. But yeah, it just felt like, well,

I can't do anything else. So, here we go.

I love it. I like that you like money. I like money too. I actually am secretly highly motivated by money. Well, not a secret anymore, but hey, what do you think of this? This is one, this always comes up to my mind. Andy Warhol famously said, making art, sorry, making money is art and working is art and good business is the best art. And what are your thoughts on that and how it kind of makes you think about, cause you know, sometimes you're making art and a lot of what

you know, my experience with music and the music industry and all that is I've had to learn the business and I've had to then, and then I've sort of come back around and step away from the industry, but kept like my own business sense and made, made up my own way and path somehow. money, you know, having to figure a lot of money thoughts and figuring out and budgeting and, you got to get really creative. like I'm, I'm a hundred percent.

Christina (36:46.412)
I don't feel as gross about the business side of things anymore as I used to. When I think of that quote, it sort of gives me permission to be like nerd out on the money sometimes side of things, you know?

Yeah, that's kind of me too. I am not like a raging capitalist or anything like that. And I'm always like conscious of taking advantage of people and things like that. But I would say like my first job was after graduating NASCAD was art director for a magazine. I...

When I went in to interview with this dude, I realized like he hadn't even started the magazine. I was like the first person he talked to. So I got to see what it was like to build an ambitious creative project from the ground up. And I had no interest in entrepreneurship or anything like that before then. But like just kind of being like seeing how this guy did it was like, and that's how I met Lisa actually.

was just fascinating because that's when I did realize like business is really a creative pursuit because you know you think of these people as they've got it all figured out they knew that they knew this and they know that but he did not know what he was doing it like he had some experience in publishing and stuff like he worked there but other than that is literally taking chances hoping this thing's gonna work just like you do with your art it's like you don't know

something's gonna work until you start doing it and playing with it and like, yeah, I kinda like the way that sounds or I like the way that looks or blah, blah, blah. And you go in this direction, that direction. You're doing the same thing with like business decisions. I kinda started to see the appeal of it there. And when I do the art pays me stuff, I mean, for sure, I look at creativity in general as an artistic pursuit.

Duane (38:52.838)
The output doesn't necessarily need to be an art relic. It's the way your mind works, I guess.

Yeah, it's all like also it's all exercising your brain and your creativity. think. and it's, yeah, it's, it's, I mean, even business people start with a blank page. Like we all start with a blank page and then you throw a bunch of shit on the page and, and then try to sort it out. yeah. Well, what, for my little heartbeat listeners who aren't familiar with you, Duane,

Yeah.

Christina (39:32.022)
And some of them are overseas in Europe. Some of them are in the U S and most of them are in Canada, but who knows? Someone might be listening in, I don't know, pick a far off destination. where would we like to our little heartbeat listeners to start listening from? How about Antarctica? People listen to podcasts in Antarctica. Sure. okay. So from a little heartbeat listeners, new and old, what kind of products and creative works,

Does Art Pay Me offer? Do you offer? And...

How did you land on this brand? How did you get to this point where you're like, I'm gonna call my brand, my umbrella brand, Art Pays Me, and I'm gonna offer a lot of things. What's about that? What is?

Yeah.

When I started my business originally, it was called Glitterati Communications. I started while I was working for that magazine because the writing was on the wall, the business was starting to suffer. I needed something to keep me afloat. So I started doing graphic design work, taking on client work through that name.

Duane (40:54.722)
And I was also an immigrant that needed a job in order to stay in the country. Because now that my student visa was up, I had to just keep getting work permits. So my girlfriend at the time was not my wife. We started this business and she was going to hire me as a designer for Bladarotic Communications. And then it didn't go through.

But I ended up getting a job at Dalhousie University as a graphic designer and actually Duly Noted. Yeah, I'm forgetting. I worked at Duly Noted first and then Dal. But I just kept the business in the background and would do client work over the years and build up a bit of a portfolio. But it was super frustrating because I kind of lost touch with myself as an artist. I was like a capital D designer.

And I only did work that came to me from clients. And I had no real point of view anymore. But I did find myself starting to be like wanting to push my clients to do more interesting things, more things outside of the box. Because I just think globally, I'm always like looking at what's happening around the world and wanted to be like, look, this is what...

is trendy right now or this is what's interesting or this is not even a trend I think it will be a trend let's try this and people only want to do what they've seen before and it's often only the thing that they saw one of their competitors do and I'm like you're already copying like anyway I got super frustrated so I was like I know stuff like I'm tired man you remember the Hawaiian shirt trend that

Let it all

Christina (42:48.589)
Yes.

I remember, I'm in Bermuda one year and I'm looking at legit Hawaiian shirts in this cheesy touristy store. I'm like, man, it would be dope if you restyled these things slightly, put some anime characters on them, like whatever. I kid you not, a few years later, everybody was wearing Hawaiian shirts. And I'm like, see, I have ideas and I sit and like...

Act on them.

don't act. It happens all the time. So I like, I need to make my own products. So I made, I turned the glitterati thing into a clothing brand called Be Glitterati. And the glitterati are like the leaders in culture and design and all that stuff, right? So the premise was that. like, and it did get a little bit of like popularity, but I hit a big wall because like the whole glitterati thing was always like

It was a mouthful, it was a lot to explain to people and I couldn't really figure out where to take it next. It didn't have like a strong direction. It was literally just me putting cool stuff, cool slogans on t-shirts, no direction. And then one of the last t-shirts I made for that brand said, art pays me. And I was talking to my, and I started like using the hashtag too all the time. And,

Duane (44:18.082)
I was in a master's program at Dell at that time, because I was like fed up with the creative industry, ready to just quit and just become a corporate dude, because I was tired of it all. And when I was in that program, like everybody in there was like, your mind works so much differently than ours. And then I started to realize like, it's because of my art background and everything, I see things in a different way.

It actually is valuable and taking lessons I took from that actually made it easier for me to sell more outlandish concepts to my clients because now I knew how to speak like business people speak and I knew what their aims were and that, you know, we're not just being outlandish to be outlandish. We're being outlandish because we're trying to get this thing to happen for you. This business objective that you said you wanted to happen. So that was happening.

I was toying with this idea. My boy Bo Cleeton had a firm called Napkin and he was doing these like branding things, startup branding exercises for people. And I was like, yo, I want to join in. I want to do one. So I hired him and his agency to like do a little branding thing for Beagle Adoradi. And we hashed out all this stuff. And like at the end of it,

Like we talked about the values I have about creative empowerment and social justice and all that stuff. And he was like, I think you should change the name to Art Pays Me and just own that and like make everything you do like align with that, those concepts. So from there, that was like 2014 or so the Art Pays Me brand was born.

I love it. Wow. love it. So the website is artpaysme.com. And I encourage everybody to go and check that out. You really think through like the partners who you use, you know, when it comes to manufacturing, which is, you know, not something every company does, but can you talk about why that's important to you and why maybe you think it's?

Christina (46:38.474)
important for the world to think more about how we make things that we put on our bodies.

Yes, definitely. So, you know, I started out like, and like most people, like you just want the most affordable, like I'm not, I genuinely tried to be a real fashion designer. I took sewing classes. I did all, I learned how to make things, but at the end of the day, I realized that my specialty is graphics. That's what I do. I make images. I'm not.

a textile artist, I'm not going to make the best t-shirt that's already been like, that's someone else's bag. So what I wanted to do was just find the best t-shirt that I could find. And there was a Canadian manufacturer that I found that just the cotton was just so soft, so much like softer than the generic t-shirts that you might get from March. And it's expensive.

but I just like that right balance of quality. And then there was a lot of movement at that time about talking about Made in Canada or Made in the US and stuff like that. And look, I'm a foreigner. So I think it's hypocritical for me to say that it's wrong to source things from elsewhere. However, in terms of like,

the carbon footprint and all of those things and just the straight out quality. just, for me, it was important that people got a product that they can wear and that feels good to them. yeah, that it takes away from my margins, but it just makes me feel good to know that my partners are ethical and that they're, I know I'm getting a good thing that people can wear. Again, margins are a real thing and that's the,

Duane (48:41.718)
So I want to get up. Is it okay if I got a little soap boxy?

Yeah, please get a little soap boxy. Yeah. This is what people don't pay me for. I love it. Yeah.

So that's the other thing, like when the whole Made in Canada thing really started too, that was a whole... It was gonna be partly like a selling point for me too, because people said they wanted this. But the reality is I don't think people care that much. I think people care more that they can pay less. think that's

The music industry that is 100 % been proven. They do not. They just want to pay nothing.

Right. Because I'm like, I charge $40, which is not a ton for my t-shirts because it cost me like $20 to make them. So, you know, I could charge you less because I've had people say I could go to Walmart and get a t-shirt for $20. And I'm like, yeah, if I sell it for you for $20 in the hole, I'm already in the hole because I don't sell all of them. you know, there's just a lot of things there that like...

Duane (49:52.274)
so I don't begrudge, I say it that way because I don't begrudge anyone who finds the cheapest supplier they can find. I get it. I'm just bro, I'm just a weirdo. it's all

I get it as well. I I love my quality pieces, don't get me wrong. But I have been known to have a little bit of a Timu fetish. Absolutely. It's the first thing that comes to mind when I need a weird costume-y cloak for a show is to go find it on Timu.

Or I could spend three days driving around Nova Scotia trying to find a fucking cloak. This is actually part of my life right now. But yeah. Hey, Dwayne, this is, I have a fun surprise for you. I have some actual real questions from other human beings for you. Would you like me to play them for you? Cool. Okay, let's do it.

Yeah, that's good.

Christina (51:01.91)
And then we could put you back on your soapbox. I love it. Okay. Let me, I hope you can hear this. I'm just going to play it into the, okay. Ready? Question number one from our mutual friend, Chris DiCchio.

My question for Duane is, you know, when the going gets tough, when you are struggling as a small business owner and you're doing your art and things aren't going your way, what do you tell yourself to pump yourself up to get out of that funky mindset?

I'm really thinking it through because I'm going through that right now.

I'll whisper some things at ya.

You're gonna die, Dwayne. Just do what you want.

Duane (51:53.814)
I think that's what it is. I do always think about mortality. I can't stop thinking about... My pops died, he's a musician. And I remember him always talking about when I retire, I'm gonna do whatever I wanna do. I mean, he kinda did what he wants to do anyway, so... I mean, who was he kidding? But he died like a year after retiring, something like that. And that just sticks with him. It's just like...

And this whole Toronto thing I did, I probably would have been scared to do it because it was expensive. But I'm like, I keep saying I want to make this art thing work. It's not going to happen if I sit in my basement and make stuff and don't tell anyone or only post on Instagram, which is what I did for years. It's that I have to keep telling myself, you're going to die, buddy. Like, yeah, just don't be afraid. Just make the things, do the things.

and accept that it's hard and the pain is kind of like part of it because it makes the joy better. Like I'm broke right now. I'm super broke. So it's pain right now. But like I also have like some amazing things that have happened in the last year and are going to happen coming forward. So I'm like that

Praise be.

Duane (53:22.434)
that gamify part in my brain is like, okay, so now how do I flip this to make it a win? All of these things.

Yeah. There's a really great, taking a quote from your bio on your website that explains how, okay, Duane was a frustrated artist and designer who was tired of never having a seat at the table. And then he remembered that designers and artists build tables and chairs, so he built his own seat and sometimes tables as well. This is something I can 1000 % relate to because nobody ever handed me anything.

And there were things that I have to spend so much money on and I am broke because of it. In fact, we just had this massive financial meeting, meeting the last couple of months, the month, the last month has been like, how are we paying off our debt? that's, but the point being that I had to make those things happen for myself because I knew nobody else would. And that meant digging deep and financially and, you know, luckily I have a supportive partner who was

musician as well. I see that in you, I hear that. And a lot of the thoughts on my end too are, this comes from also after my father passed away when I was 19. so having gone through that and seeing how fragile life can be, when you see someone you think is going to live forever and then that doesn't happen. But there's a stripping away of

It's not that you're not afraid anymore, but you just go, I'm just going to do this anyway. There's a bit of a numbness because you're like, well, what's the worst that could happen? The goal then, I guess, shifts to, I don't want to die with regrets.

Duane (55:14.658)
That's it. That's my daily thing. don't, and I say that to people who have come down on me sometimes, that is like, I don't want to be laid up in the hospital thinking, man, I wish I tried that.

Yeah, like what's, why not? If it's not hurting anybody else and like, if you can find a way, even if it means you're going into debt, in, know, if you know, I can get out of this.

I can get out of it, right? You gotta believe that you can and you gotta just do, but then be smart, like take the steps to do it. And I think I see that in you too, because like I also have seen people who are completely delusional and just, you know, do stupid stuff back to back and then like, you know.

I know. Yeah. I've always had a line. Like, mean, don't get me wrong. I'm sure I've felt delusional at times, you know, but that's where you, maybe have a trusted person in your life or you sit with it. You try to, know, and this is just life. just, we make mistakes too. Listen, I mean, not perfect. but yeah, it's, it's, you know, these conversations, I never had them growing up. And it was for a long time, you were alone.

in this kind of mindset and it's scary. now we've lived a bit, we're meeting people who are like-minded, have similar experiences or things we can also learn from. And it's inspiring and a bit comforting. Like, I don't like to hear that you're in pain, but I also, when you said like the joy becomes that much more joyful and I get it. it is kind of like, yeah, I mean, that's just what we've learned.

Christina (57:02.346)
Hopefully it'll all work out okay. Hopefully we have food on the table and shelter and our friends we love, family we love, those are most important things. And is the debt being handled responsibly?

Yeah, right. That's the thing. It's, yeah. And it's ongoing. I actually, know, thinking of like the dad thing, like I found a book that my dad is in from like a Bermudian musicians and Osam, he said, like quoted when he was like 19 talking about wanting to see more rock and roll in Bermuda and

know, how they went on tour in Europe and the UK and opened for Jimi Hendrix. I was just like, why did he never talk to me about any of this stuff? Like, he had a... But he probably didn't see the parallel between like, a visual artist and a musician. But like, he owned his own taxi. So technically he was an entrepreneur. he... That was his like...

His regular job was driving taxi, but every night he played gigs. And when he was younger, he toured. So it's like, those conversations, I'm like, I want to make sure that I share the full part of me with my kids and my family too. And that's another thing. Like, I don't want them to, I want to be that example too.

Yeah, well, you also have a podcast and I think I've been thinking about this lately, the podcast is a great way to have those conversations and your kids can listen. I don't have kids, my cat could listen. But you know what? When I'm on my deathbed, like let's say I make it to 98 or 110 and all I can do is listen to audio books or whatever. I'm going to listen back to this chat with you, Dwayne, and feel happy. Right.

Christina (59:04.128)
It's just, yeah, it's just a piece of us that no one can ever take away. And if I have, if I can't hear anymore, Dwayne, I'm going to have it transcribed. So maybe I'll put it in Braille if I can't see. mean, I don't know, but the options are there for us to always have these chats with heart. And that's what you're doing with your podcast too. I was actually going to ask you with your podcast, how has that the podcast? Cause you know, it's not always like you're busy.

I've struggled with like, often do I do this? like, I know that it has made my life better. These conversations like what is it done for you?

Because like I deal a lot of things with my mental health and Being being related to guilt of Not sort of living up to what I think my potential is or not completing things in a certain way for instance I I did I my plan is to release two episodes a month and I last episode I released was in October and then I released

another one in January. you know, whenever I go on these breaks, it's not like intentional. It's like stuff is just going on and it's too much and I can't bring myself to edit or I can't bring myself to do whatever. And then I get all down on myself. And sometimes like my therapist or my wife or whoever, sometimes they're like, well, you gotta, you're doing too many things. You can't do everything. You gotta pick something or...

multiple things to take out and the podcast almost always comes up as one of those things and then I'm like no I just I enjoy I literally enjoy doing it I just forget that I enjoy doing it when I get overwhelmed sometimes with the work but the chats have been so beneficial for me like even so I said Omar Gandhi I'm like

Christina (01:00:52.366)
Bye.

Duane (01:01:09.622)
He's a superstar architect. And I run into him in Toronto. He remembers me because like the podcast, he's been on my show, we've talked, like, you know, we built a relationship. So Andrea, who I did the show with, I met her because I thought her work was dope, invited her to be on my podcast and we became friends. And now we did an exhibition in Toronto together. Like you just can't predict.

what the result is gonna be. And I've had some paid opportunities now that keep coming back. So it's like, now it's on me to stay disciplined. I put myself, I tell myself, I'll maybe reduce it to once a month so that it's better for me. But then, I don't know, is it that or is it just that I need to get out of my own way and just set aside the time to do what I need to do?

get off Instagram and stop scrolling. And because I'm demon on that app.

Are you? Yeah. You're pretty quick at responding. I'm not on there a lot, but when I go on there, you are quick to respond. Are you sitting there all day? That's what you got.

because I'm just always on there. I'm not supposed to be on there. I'm just...

Christina (01:02:30.67)
It's discipline. Setting those boundaries for yourself is hard. These devices are designed to addict us. Even the best non-addictive personality person can be addicted to the device.

Yes, and I realize if I get off there, I'd have more time to do the things.

Yeah, you would. I think we get addicted sometimes to even the, like some of the business things or actions I thought I had to do that I'm like, now I'm like, wow, that was a waste of my time, you know, but I thought I had to do it because I thought everybody else was doing it or something. And then I just stopped doing it and let it go. And then it gave me like a week more of life in the year, those kinds of things.

It's ourselves that we need to do these things and we probably, we might not. It takes a lot of self-reflection. A lot of people aren't able to look at, to have the hard conversations.

I We do have to do our taxes, everybody. We do have to do that. I do not suggest, recommend you avoid the essentials, but like I'm just trying to think of an example of what's something that we could each just throw out. I organize my sock drawer quite a bit. I could probably cut that. I spent a lot of time organizing stuff.

Duane (01:03:52.59)
Mmm.

Christina (01:04:03.968)
Like I like, really love organizing my closets and...

What are your thought categories?

I have my socks with the little rubber things on the bottom for working out. have my winter warm cozy socks. I have my sports socks. I have my fashion short socks with little hearts on them. And then there's the socks that I just never wear, I for some reason can't. Like I always think, what if you really can't afford anything and you can't buy socks someday and you don't want to darn, you should keep these socks? Is that crazy?

No, it's not not crazy at all

And what are you going to give up? which the scroll?

Duane (01:04:47.886)
So there's two things I guess. Well, there is the Instagram thing. I got to be more conscious about how I'm actually using it. I tell everyone I need it. I need it. I'm an artist. It's important and culture is what feeds my work and I have to be aware of what's going on. But I don't need to be that aware. And then also it's like watching...

certain TV shows. I love, I love love shows. I love movies. But I don't need to watch all of them and I don't need to watch something every day. I can take that time to like catch up on paperwork or do my audio and not feel guilt about like, no. I do get caught up in that thing where it's like, you shouldn't be working all the time. It's like, well,

Should I be watching shows all the time?

Exactly, like I'm just like turning my brain off watching mush when I know I have this other thing that I could be doing that I actually kind of enjoy doing. Like I love updating my website, but I don't, I'm way behind in that. But like I end up getting sucked into a show and then I don't do it.

It's so addictive. I used to not watch TV except like a movie night when I was most of my life until Dale and I got married and then streaming. then we every night will watch like, you just want to get through an episode. You want to watch the next one. Then it's midnight. You spent three or four hours laying in bed staring at a screen. I'm with you actually, you know what? I should cut down on that too, because I want to read more and sing.

Christina (01:06:34.787)
Yeah, it fuels my writing and I want to write more, like actual memoir writing. So, Dwayne, let's pinky swear.

Thank you, Swir. I read last night because it's same thing. I can't read because I'm watching stuff. So I was like, let's go to bed. I turned off the TV and I just turned on a lamp and started reading. Or I started pulling out the book and just reading while watching the show and just realized that I'm not watching the show right now. I'm actually reading.

What about a Kindle, dude?

you're locked in.

Christina (01:07:13.302)
I'm like committed. but I'm okay. So I'm ex this is inspiring. Hey, listen before I, I don't want to let you go, but I should cause you're busy. but we have one more, two more questions from our friend, Allie. Okay. Here let's go. First question. Okay. I want to know where he gets his constant inspiration from.

okay.

Christina (01:07:43.418)
And what is it that, you know, when you're in that funk, when you're not feeling motivated, when you're like, do I really have to do this again? What is it that gets you up and puts the paintbrush in your hand? But yeah, good question.

Yes, it's literally life and I make sure to write these things down now. So like things that I'm experiencing, pain that I'm feeling, joy or like some weird ass thing I came across on Instagram that I'm like, hey, that's an art piece right there.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. See, you need Instagram.

Instagram that's where I justify see I need to be on there. I just got an idea for a painting

Sometimes things come up on Instagram, fashion-wise, I'm like, Ooh, I haven't seen that before. could, I don't know, it triggers something, gets my juices flowing. I know it doesn't sound like it's related to songwriting, but the colors and the fabrics and the idea, like it gets my brain going, you know?

Duane (01:08:50.251)
Yeah, that's exactly it. Even this and this and the music too, like triggers things for visual artists a lot.

Okay, one last question again from Ali. So for some context here, Dwayne was featured in one of my music videos for a song called Sex, Drugs and Christmas Time. And in the video, we had people open up gifts. They didn't know what they were opening up. And bless his heart, Dwayne opened up

the gift that was a giant purple dildo that I ended up gifting to Ali in real life that she apparently is terrified to try. And I completely understand why. And by the way, but going back to my Tmoo's shopping, this was a Tmoo purchase. So I don't know why anyone would want to use this. Who knows if it's been returned, you know, multiple times, but yeah, do you want that back?

that's a good question. I was almost going to ask Allie if she did end up using it. I maybe I shouldn't do that.

Thanks.

Christina (01:10:08.622)
You should. I'm going to have her on the podcast talking about what it's like being a vet and then you can ask that question to her.

It's been fun, Dwayne. What do you got on the go coming up? Anything you want to tell my little heartbeat listeners about before I... Okay.

If you're in Halifax or Nova Scotia or whatever, we are going to be doing a version of the exhibition that's in Toronto in Halifax at the Halifax Central Library in the Sun Room.

That's fantastic. Yeah. We'll go see it.

Duane (01:10:46.316)
Yes, I think it's in April.

when we're in Germany. Wait, is it going to extend like for a of

Yeah, it's gonna be there for a while. It's not like a one day thing or anything. So you'll probably have time to

Okay, well tell me when the opening is so I can spread the word on my socials and maybe if we aren't in Europe at that time touring and there's an opening night, maybe we can be there for support.

Anyway, thank you for being on the podcast and I look forward to having you over, playing games, and whatever else happens.

Duane (01:11:23.256)
Yes.

and I need to get you on my podcast.

I'd love to. In creative, we should do a creative collaboration someday. Like we have 50 years at least, I'm sure, but we, something will happen where we're like, hey, let's work on this together.

Yes, I agree. I haven't done anything with the musician yet too, so that would be cool.

You could write a song. We can write a song together. I know it. I know it. We can do it. We can do it. I'm a huge believer that anyone creative and everyone, almost everyone is creative and anyone who has a story can write a song. It helps if you're partnered with a musician who can help shape it. But I'm all about writing with people who don't write songs to like now. This is a new thing I'm into.

Duane (01:11:52.138)
RRRR

Duane (01:12:15.65)
That would be fun. That would be a lot of fun.

Okay, well there's an idea. There's an idea.

a song and apparel or painting or something collab that comes together.

That would be awesome. Okay. Let's do it.

You

Christina (01:12:34.798)
Christina (01:12:41.301)
Say goodbye

Christina (01:12:48.096)
I don't wanna say goodbye to you

Christina (01:12:56.782)
Welcome to the Heartbeat Hotline, 1902-669-4769. I'm the host of a Chat with Heart podcast, Christina Martin, and I'm so excited you called. Leave me your question, a suggestion for the podcast, or a comment about this episode. Please be aware your message may be used on the podcast and social media. Tell me your name, where you're calling from, and it's also fine if you want to remain anonymous. Thanks for listening.

Have a great fucking day. Hey, thanks for listening to a chat with heart produced by me, Christina Martin, co-produced and engineered by my partner in life and sound, Dale Murray. Dale's not just a wizard with knobs. He's also a killer singer songwriter, session musician, and music producer. Go snoop around his world at dalemurry.ca. The podcast theme song, Talk About It, and I Don't Want to Say Goodbye to You were written by me and recorded by Dale. Want to support what we do?

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