Shari Ulrich: Award-Winning Canadian Singer-Songwriter and Multi-Instrumentalist

Christina chats with award-winning Canadian singer-songwriter Shari Ulrich about
living on a commune, the role that solitude plays in creativity, life lessons from being in bands, gaining confidence as a front person, listening to your instincts, and a heck of a lot more!

For over four decades, accomplished singer-songwriter and multi-instrumentalist Shari Ulrich has been winning hearts across North America with her voice, songs and on-stage charisma. A two-time JUNO-winner among other awards, she has recorded 25 albums as a solo artist and with the legendary Pied Pumpkin, The Hometown Band, UHF, BTU and The High Bar Gang.

Chapters

• 0:00 Greetings from Christina
• 0:49 Theme Song - Talk About It
• 1:14 Introduction by Christina
• 6:17 Immigrating to Canada
• 8:28 Finding British Columbia
• 14:25 Expressing Creativity and Solitude
• 18:29 Lessons learned from being in bands
• 22:03 Being a self-managed career musician is tough and rewarding
• 30:59 Identifying your 'why'
• 32:46 Sex, drugs and rock and roll
• 35:31 Success
• 37:51 Fear of Flying
• 43:03 Making mistakes, and being yourself
• 45:33 Listen to your instincts
• 50:30 Storm
• 51:42 SongBird North in Vancouver - April 4, 2024
• 58:28 Heartbeat Hotline 1(902)-669-4769
• 59:00 Podcast Credits
• 59:30 Support the Podcast on Patreon

Transcript

S3E7: Shari Ulrich

Christina: [00:00:03] Welcome to a Chat with Heart. I'm your host, Christina Martin. I'm a singer songwriter. I live on a dirt road with my best friend Dale in rural Nova Scotia, Canada. A Chat with Heart is just me having chill conversations with people I want to celebrate, and topics that I'm curious about. If you have a question or a comment for this podcast, call my Heartbeat Hotline 1-902-669-4769. To send this podcast even more love, visit me online at Patreon.com/ChristinaMartin. I'm so happy you're listening. Our personal stories have great power to heal, influence and inspire. All we have to do is show up for the conversation.

Theme Song 'Talk About It': [00:00:49] If we just talk about it, we can shinen a light, we can break a dark day. If we just talk about it, we can cut a way, we can make a brighter day.

Christina: [00:01:13] Hi there. I hope you're doing well fighting your good fight. I know some days can feel like a struggle. So when this episode airs, I will either be packing for or on the plane or overseas in England doing a tour with Dale. Um, I'll be sharing things on Instagram and Facebook, but if you want the tour blog, I share that with my paid members on my Patreon. It's kind of my journal. I've always kept a tour journal for myself, but, uh, lately I've only been motivated to write a tour journal if I, uh, can share it with some folks. So visit my Patreon to keep up with more details on the tour. And my Patreon helps me afford the tour. So soon after I returned from England early April, I'm flying to British Columbia, Canada to do three shows in Vancouver and one on Vancouver Island, and I'm recording a new song with my friend Leeroy Stagger at his studio in Victoria. I have a lot to look forward to.

Christina: [00:02:32] Uh, my guest today, I think we met back in 2009 I want to say. It was very likely my first show in Vancouver, British Columbia, and it was a Songbird North showcase. Songbird North is a bi monthly showcase presented by the Songwriters Association of Canada and hosted by my guest today, Shari Ulrich.

Christina: [00:02:59] Shari has been hosting Songbird North for 28 years. If you're not familiar with the Songwriters Circle, um, this type of event is it's a wonderful experience. It's four different songwriters usually. Uh, sometimes less, sometimes more. Sharing stories about the songs and the writing. It's really cool. So I'm thrilled to be invited back to do Songbird North in Vancouver on April 4th at the Roundhouse. Get your tickets on my website. It's a stacked lineup Shari Ulrich, Jill Barber, Cara Luft, and yours truly. The other solo acoustic shows I'm playing in Vancouver are April 3rd at Faculty Brewing Co. It's their first live music event. I'm so thrilled and looking forward to it. And then you all know I like doing house concerts, so I'm doing a house concert at Cliff's on April 4th. And then I traveled to Vancouver Island to do a show at Shah's landing in Port Alberni. It's going to be my first time at Shah's. And, um, all the ticket information is on my website. Christina Martinet y'all. I haven't done a solo show since 2009. I think so, yeah. Wish me luck. I'm excited. I know it'll be good for me. Just me and my acoustic guitar and my stories, you know? So that's another fun, uh, update tour wise.

Christina: [00:04:36] And it's only appropriate to chat on my podcast with the woman who is responsible for inviting me to perform in Vancouver. She's an icon, a strong role model for me, for sure. For over four decades, accomplished singer songwriter and multi-instrumentalist Shari Ulrich has been winning hearts across North America with her voice, songs and on stage charisma. A two time Juno winner, among other awards, she has recorded 25 albums as a solo artist and with the legendary Pied Pumkin, the hometown band UHF, BTU and the High Bar gang Trigger Warning. Towards the end of the chat, a story is shared that involves sexual violence, which could be triggering for some listeners. Shari's life is remarkable and her music has been informed by her experiences. We really just scratched the surface in our chat. I could have talked with her for hours. Thank you Shari, for creating a space to build connections with stories and music, for audiences and musicians, for sharing your stage, and for being a role model for artists like me. After you listen to our chat, my little heartbeat listeners, do yourselves a favor and listen to Shari's latest album, Back to Shore. I never regret spending time with Shari or listening to her music.

Christina: [00:06:17] Shari, welcome to a Chat with Heart podcast.

Shari: [00:06:20] I'm so happy we did it. We did it, we did it. This is so.

Christina: [00:06:26] Cool to have you. It's such a treat.

Shari: [00:06:29] Um, it's funny, we have such a long history with such a long gap of actually being in the same room, like a couple of decades, maybe. Do a lot.

Christina: [00:06:38] Of people say this about you, though? Like, I feel as soon as I met you and now, like, we have known each other forever.

Shari: [00:06:46] Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Christina: [00:06:48] Okay.

Shari: [00:06:49] Well, we're on the same page. That's a good start.

Christina: [00:06:52] That is a good, good start. Good start. Yeah. I'm just so happy. And, uh, even more excited now that I've had some time to kind of dig into your music more. And your life. 

Shari: [00:07:05] You did some Shari. Shari homework, did you? Yeah, I did, I know whether to say thank you or apologize.

Christina: [00:07:12] Oh, it's it was fascinating, super inspiring. And I love the music videos. Love that you have, like, I'm just so in awe, and but I do I do want to go back like, I made some I made some notes because I'm a little bit of a nerd.

Shari: [00:07:26] And you're a pro.

Christina: [00:07:27] Oh well, yeah. We'll see.

Shari: [00:07:29] I know you're a pro.

Christina: [00:07:30] Thanks.

Shari: [00:07:32] I know you have to be paid for it to be a pro. Yeah. Never mind.

Christina: [00:07:36] Um. Shit. Yeah. Uh, yeah. No, this is all, um. This is all, you know, I was I was laying in my bed last night with Dale, my husband, and, uh, I was talking about how great, how much I enjoyed doing these podcast chats. And it's sort of like, you know, how we don't really. I don't know if you do, but we don't do photo albums anymore. And so this is such a great way to just document, but like have this piece of like memory with someone I care about and want to know more about. And like when I'm on my deathbed, I legit can just spend time with my friends listening back to these episodes. I'm.

Shari: [00:08:17] Wow you're really planning ahead, aren't you?

Christina: [00:08:19] I have been planning for the end of my life ever since my father's death. So yes.

Shari: [00:08:25] Oh, interesting. Which is how many years ago?

Christina: [00:08:28] Oh, it would have been 1999. Which, yeah. Which brings me to. Okay. So. Okay, I really want to dig into this. And maybe there's not much to dig into, but I feel there might be because you you have said that moving to British Columbia. So you were born in the States. You were born in California. Raised in California? Yeah. And then you moved. At some point you end up in British Columbia, Canada, and you have referred to that as kind of an accident, like moving to BC. But I know that it's probably there's some detail in there, just like when I moved to Austin, Texas, as a nanny, that was an accident. I didn't know Austin was a live music capital of the world and I would live there. And what is your accident like? What's the detail behind how did you cross the border?

Shari: [00:09:12] Some of your listeners might have heard this story because I wrote a song called Canada. And so of course, I have to tell the story of how I came to be here. But it was I was in Northern California, so just north of San Francisco, so very involved in the anti-war movement or the peace movement, depending on how you want to frame it. And, uh, very involved in, in a group on the college campus where I was doing marches and, and my mother was I was living at home because the college was nearby and my mother was traveling in Europe. And so I was very independent. And Kent State happened when the students got shot on a college campus in an anti-war demonstration. And I thought, oh, shit, that could be me. I'm I'm terrified. Like, that was the I can't say it was the first, but it was a very violent episode in our in in my world for sure. Yeah. Where I felt like I could be the target for something that seemed so right to be supportive of. Right? Yeah. So I decided that very day that I heard that news that I was going to go to Canada, that I was going to leave the country. I did not like what the country was doing, and I was going to leave. So I packed up the car, which was the car that the kids and the family drove. I was the youngest. They were all gone. So I figured somehow that was my car and loaded it up with everything I thought I might possibly need to, uh, in what I thought was a country that had no cities and was just wilderness.

Shari: [00:10:51] So I was prepared to either build a teepee or build a log cabin and homestead. Wow. That's what I thought I was doing. I had a friend who lived in in Vancouver, North Vancouver, so I had somebody saying, you should come here. Um, but I didn't think about how she lived. So I was very surprised when I rolled into Vancouver, but I did feel like it was different from the. Very start. I don't know whether it was sort of the monarch vibe, but it felt like better grown ups were involved and that I wanted to be. I wanted to stay. I mean, I didn't feel like, okay, this is where I'm going to be for the rest of my life. I just thought, oh, well, this is not what I expected, but I'm going to see what's here. And I had been I had taken violin in grade school and, and, um, picked up other instruments along the way, you know, learned the songs of the time and guitar and stuff like that. Um, but I never thought that music was going to be my, my thing. But somehow as I settled, and this was after a few years because I lived on a commune when I first arrived, cool coast. There's a lot of stories. I'm going to try and keep it short. Um,

Christina: [00:12:04] Commune that's like, that could be a whole episode.

Shari: [00:12:07] I know, I know. So I ended up in Vancouver and going to a lot of music things and somehow people maybe I was sitting in a bit on violin or, or a conga drum was the first instrument that I played, uh, publicly. Uh, but people started encouraging me to, to do music. And then I met some musicians and they said, well, let's start a band. And of course, I had a crush on on the guy in the band, which was usually how my life's path was led. It was depended on what my boyfriend did. Right. So my boyfriend was a guitar player and guitar maker. Well, so that's where it started. That's how I ended up in Vancouver and and never thought of leaving. I did have a chapter of living in Toronto. I had a chapter of living in LA, but I kept circling back to the Vancouver area and then for 30 years on on Bowen Island, which is just off Vancouver.

Christina: [00:13:03] So it was pretty, it was pretty easy back then to just cross the border.

Shari: [00:13:09] Well, it was for just coming to visit. Like I had no problem that first time. But when my boyfriend on the commune, when he and I decided actually we hadn't moved to the commune yet, we just decided that we wanted to, and we loaded up his Econoline van with all his lighting equipment because he was a lighting guy and got to the border and said, we want to immigrate to Canada. And he was a hippie with hair down to his waist, and I don't know what the hell I looked like in those days, but it was most assuredly a hippie vibe. So we remember the the guy who was interviewing us, and this was when you would park and go in, right? Not at the, at the booth. Uh, and he said, what makes you think that we would want your kind here? And that was it. So he turned us around. This is a lighting guy who went on to to work with David Bowie and Nine Inch Nails. And anyway, in the future.

Christina: [00:14:08] Wow, I would like I would like his kind here.

Shari: [00:14:12] So this was before computers. So we just turned around and we went to a different border and said, hi, we're just coming to visit and drove in. Yeah. And stayed ever since.

Christina: [00:14:25] Here and are, here you are. Here you are. Oh my God, I love it. I love that story. Um, there was an interview that you did where you said that you practice your creativity, where you live on Bowen Island in your home, but then where you express yourself is out in the rest of the world. And I don't know why, but it just totally blew me away. I was like, that's such a great way to explain. You know, the life of most artists like that live in a rural community. Like we go home, we like solitude. And like, I want to chat about the role that solitude, uh, plays. 

Shari: [00:15:06] So big. So big. Yeah. It's why I'm single. Amazing big. Because I really, I don't even, you know, I'm good with with my daughter and her husband coming over for a few days or, you know, I love friends to come and visit, but I I'm ready for them. I'm always ready for people to go as well, because reverting back to that solitude, or like when you're on the road and you're building with people, like getting to your room, that's your room where you can close the door. It's the best part. Okay, maybe the performing is the music is, but oh no.

Christina: [00:15:42] We daydream about, uh, the end of the night getting to the hotel I actually don't like, actually. I mean, with a few select friends who get us. I'm not a huge fan of billeting.

Shari: [00:15:53] Oh, I know, no, no, it's. You got to be on all the time. It's it's I mean, I have made lifelong friends by doing that. And I started out thinking I am never building. Don't even think about telling me that's what I'm doing. And then of course, had to at certain points. And as I said, there are many of those people who will who I go to stay with to see because they're yeah, they're lifelong friends, which is wonderful. But yes, solitude is it's I would not be able to be a creative person without it. Having said that, I think either it has helped foster or it reaffirms that. For me, writing is a solo endeavor. And and I don't say that proudly because most of the world collaborates and wonderful work comes out of it. Uh, I just I don't know whether it's that I have sort of a fear of collaboration because it's always been such a private thing for me, the process. So I have I will say that I, I write the least amount of time in my house because I have I'm, I'm a home person. I could constant I could, you know, spend a year in my house just puttering and fixing things and not the things are broken, but, you know, home improvement, just painting this and fixing that little hole there. And and it's just the way I am. 

Christina: [00:17:23] Dusting the typewriter that's behind you there. Yeah. Do you like organizing? Like, do you like cleaning and doing homie. Like. Yeah, I love you're just. 

Shari: [00:17:31] I do. 

Christina: [00:17:32] I think we might be related.

Shari: [00:17:34] Uh, maybe I think.

Christina: [00:17:35] You might be one of my sisters from another mother.

Shari: [00:17:37] What's your father's name? Yeah.

Christina: [00:17:38] Robert. Joseph. Robert. Martin.

Shari: [00:17:40] Oh my God.

Christina: [00:17:42] Amazing, amazing.

Shari: [00:17:44] So I go to I have friends who have a cabin over on Vancouver Island that they let me go stay in. So I will go for a couple of weeks if I can. Yeah, because I also need time to, you know, I need a few days to avoid the writing and the creativity, and then the rest of the time I will surrender to it. Um, I have been home for almost all of January and it's been a creative time, which is great. I'm also preparing for tours with three different groups, so it today is when I start doing that after after we finish our talk, that's when that work starts. But but I can do that with nobody in the house listening to me. Yeah I would well I do have a soundproof room I could go to, but.

Christina: [00:18:29] I love it, I love it and you. You just, you know, you've been with in a lot of bands. My I really curious to hear. What kind of bigger life lessons you've learned from being in bands. I'm sure I want a horror story too, but I don't want you to throw anybody under the bus. But like, whatever you can give me, Sheri. Because like.

Shari: [00:18:52] Everything I've learned about everything in the last 50 years has been from being in a band. Yeah, certainly about people and human interaction. Yeah.

Christina: [00:19:05] We talked about solitude, but yet you have been in so many bands, so it's it isn't like you. Yeah. You need to live your whole life alone. It's not that at all. It's just. No.

Shari: [00:19:15] Oh, no. And I think I think it's about the balance between that and the intensely social experience. Even if I'm touring solo, it's an intensely social experience. Every night it's talking to dozens and dozens of people and and, you know, performing in front of them is a social experience as well. But so that I love that balance in life, it's probably one of the reasons why I love being home alone, because the the contrast the rest of my life, which I enjoy the heck out of uh, is, is very, very people interaction based, very intense in, in the best of ways, usually in the best of ways. There's the odd time if I've been on the road for a while, and there's the odd time where I realize that my inner voice and my outer voice are so different as I'm having a conversation that my inside voice is saying, please stop talking to me. Please stop talking to me. Oh my God, yeah, yeah, it can happen. Yes. But yes, there are the the dynamics in each band is so different. And of course, because the humans are so different and you go through especially if like all of the the bands that I've been in by now, except for the Luckies, which is a female trio, uh, have been together for at least a decade and usually 2 or 3. Well, I've been in my own band for 50 years, so. Mhm, mhm. And that involves a, you know, rotation of players as well. Yeah.

Christina: [00:20:50] That rotation of players. Uh. Do you find that? Um. You know. Are you are you intentionally going? Well, I are you thinking like, well, I'd like to be around maybe, uh, people of a different generation to freshen things up for me? Or are you just, like, if it works musically and they're cool person. I don't care about age or, uh, any, you know, experience necessarily.

Shari: [00:21:16] Yes, I would say that, but I have loved being in one of my trios is is sort of three generational. So it's myself and and Cindy Fairbank, who's in her 40s, I think, and my daughter or maybe, maybe she's closer to 50, actually. And then my daughter, who's in her 30s. So there is that. Oh, I just love I love all of it. I really love all of it. Like and it doesn't it doesn't matter about the generation. But I do love it when I look over and realize that that that's what's happening. We have three generations of women up here and and aren't they amazing and feeling that sense from the audience of oh my God, aren't they amazing? Mhm. That is really cool. Yeah. Yeah.

Christina: [00:22:03] As a as a career musician you know that things can get overwhelming and yes. So yeah big surprise. It can be overwhelming running you know and it is running. You have to be a business person. And exactly there's so many details when it comes to I mean that's not even talking about creating the music, but in terms of you want to express it and then, well, how are you going to do that? That's that's where you start thinking about the business side of things. And, and I, I'm really curious. Um, because you have you do have this great career and experience. Like what do you think now? Like simple things. What are some simple things that still work when it comes to, like building connections? Um, keeping things rolling, like what's working for you? That. Oh, God, you know, can kind of like, for example, do you ever, like, I got on the phone with a couple of promoters, uh, artistic directors, uh, this last month, and it was so nice to just talk about, like, the gig instead of just emailing and.

Shari: [00:23:13] Oh, I don't know. Yeah, I'm torn about that. I mean, it is one of the things that I love is building the connections with presenters wherever I go. Um, and, and I do find that in situations where, like, one of my bands has an agent and a promoter and management and all of that, so I don't have to do anything. But I feel sometimes that the relationship with the the presenter suffers because they're only getting that wall of people and noise and demands and stuff like that. So sometimes I'll do a little end run and phone them up so that we can have a relationship. Yeah. Um, but I do find that the business side of it, all of that is the part that I dread. Really. I would rather other than those relationships that get built, I would rather not be doing all that. And I don't know why I got set on this course. The last time I had a manager was 1982. Oh, so I've been doing it all myself. And plus with the other trios that I play with for some reason, because I'm that kind of person, I end up doing the itineraries and the booking and the and, uh, you know, phoning ahead and arranging everything, all the planning. Yeah. Which everyone is very grateful for. But it does. It does suck up my life for sure. It takes a huge crunch out of the out of my creative life. Um, but you started that question with, with a, with a little different slant to it, and I lost the thread of what that was. Um, well, because it was the positive part, it wasn't, you know, it wasn't the part about what a pain in the ass it is to have to book yourself all the time. But. 

Christina: [00:24:56] I guess it was some tips on like, yeah, okay. So we acknowledge that this is an it can be overwhelming. 

Shari: [00:25:04] It's consuming. Yeah.

Christina: [00:25:06] But what's, what's working. And that I suppose if it's, you know, the things that are working about what we do that keep us going and maybe it is the relationships like in your mind. And so like, what are the things that maybe it's something that brings you joy or.

Shari: [00:25:21] Well, the music, it's all about the music. I love playing music for people. I love it more than ever. It just gets bigger and better. Not in terms of being a bigger star, but bigger, deeper relationship with the audience with. When I am with them, something very powerful happens and I love that. And it's just it's so fun and so positive and so enriching, and just to be doing an art form that you in this moment, that you are sharing that art form you are feeling and sensing and seeing how it's impacting them, and then they express it in the intermission or at the end of the night and or in an email afterwards. And it's deep. It's big and so rewarding that we get to do something that that affects people in so deeply.

Christina: [00:26:21] So, you know, what I'm taking from what you just said is from where I'm sitting, if if you are feeling overwhelmed, listeners, my little Heartbeat Listeners, I call them or and a lot of them are career musicians or whatever. Like they're, they're or what I'm taking from this is remember what you love and keep investing in that. Don't don't spend all your time trying to chase, uh, you know, build your building, your team and all these things and networking. It's there is a time and a place for that. But ultimately, if you have zero time left to become a better musician, find your joy in your work and your purpose, I guess, and your voice, then you're not going to have anything to connect with, like it's going to fall flat. You're am I getting that true?

Shari: [00:27:12] Yeah. Yes. Except that I've always assumed that if I built a team, then it would free up a lot of time for for the important part, um, which is, of course, the creative part, because I distill that down to if I don't write new songs, if I don't keep writing songs, yeah, then I have lost the thread about why I'm doing what I do. If I'm just going out and playing the old songs that people are familiar with, but in front of them, instead of them listening on their headphones, then that's not enough. Um, but I've just assumed that my failure was not building the team. But there's something else in there that I think is really important. And it's it's that kernel of why, why are you why are we doing what we're doing? And that it's almost a surefire road to despair. Air or unhappiness if one is doing it because they have a deep hole to fill. By having some fame, by being known in that kind of way. And I think. I think that it's important to really have an honest talk with yourself about why are you doing this? Do you need people to say, oh my God, you're amazing. Do you, do you have a burning need to communicate something or just to create something, and then have had enough of a sense that people enjoy receiving that, that you should keep doing it. That's different than than I really want to be famous or even I really want to be rich, which is even more risky, probably. Mhm. Uh, and I think that the people who have fame really early on, before they have any sense of who they are and why they're doing what they do or want to do what they do. Uh, it's a really hard life.

Shari: [00:29:15] It's it's hard in a very different way that none of us who are wildly famous or rich can ever understand. And I had enough of it to know that to if you can't go out in the world and feel anonymous if you have people around you. I mean, I never had this much where you'd feel this wave of, oh my God, it's her. It's not like that. I never had that. But I've had enough where someone who might have been an intense fan come up and just be so nervous and so rattled, and I've been that person. I know what that's like. Like, oh my God, they're actually in front of me. What am I going to say? What, what? How can I impress them? You know, it's just like, I don't want people to feel so out of their bodies and minds when they're around me. So imagine if you are just so crazy famous that that happens. You can't walk out your door with without that sea of of energy of oh my God, like it would just be so uncomfortable. Yeah, you would have to be so insular and it would change how you move in your life dramatically. So don't think that that's a great goal, that that's always my advice to to people and in workshops and stuff. If I sense that there's a huge amount of, uh, a needy ego in there, yeah, I'll find a way to try and redirect them or recenter them to really think about why they're doing what they're doing and what is it going to give them, really. And of course, when you have that hole, nothing fills that hole. That's right. It's there for your life until you figure it out that, oh, there's a hole. I better I better work on this.

Christina: [00:30:59] That's true. My, why has, I've identified my whys over the years? It's changed thankfully. But it's interesting how a why that can be a giant hole initially can at least get you started on a path with heart, and then recognizing that I no longer want to be fueled by that and how it, you know, changing which over the years, you know, thankfully for myself anyway, that my why is is no longer about the original why it's a it's a healthy a healthier why. Yeah. Um, and, uh, you know, my measure of success. I want to know actually what your. Today. Like your measure of like, oh, look at yourself and ask yourself, Shari, what? What does success mean to me today?

Shari: [00:31:49] Well, I definitely started out not in the very beginning, because the very beginning was pie pumpkin, which was it's so grounded me in the importance of the spirit of the music, because it was a spirited band, like people would go nuts, and there was so much freedom in it for me as a musician. So that was that. That really sort of launched me into maintaining that sense of what's important. And then I had then there was the hometown band, which I joined because of the lure of, oh my God, this the first tour we were playing to 3000 seat theaters, two shows a night all across Canada. So that was on Baldy's reputation, right? Baldy and the Hometown band. And then we became a band after that. So we had a record deal. We had tons of tour support, you know, the touring and buses and all of that stuff. And and then I went solo.

Christina: [00:32:46] Sex, drugs and rock and roll. Shari.

Shari: [00:32:48] I was not the druggie, but there were definitely drugs around. Okay. Um, so then I went solo. Same thing. Record deal. Um, lots of support. And I just assumed that that very first album, I was going to be winning a Grammy for that album. There was no question in my mind, like, this is it, I am, I am launched every stage was going to be a 3000 seat theaters. I never really aimed for arenas, frankly. Yeah, I like good sound. Um, yeah. Um, and then when when uh. So then I moved on to for so from A&M to MCA and then the plug was pulled by MCA at the dawn of the US release of my second sorry, my third album. And so everything got pulled out from under me. So I, I dropped the manager because we never were a good fit. Uh, I figured, okay, I guess, well, I tried to get another record deal and no one was interested. And I had this this moment where I realized if I want to have a career, it can't be contingent on whether or not a record label thinks that they can make enough money off me, which is what they do.

Shari: [00:34:04] It's a very practical concern. That's why they pick the artists they pick. And I thought, I know that I have fans, I know that there's value in what I do. I know I'm good at what I do, so I'm just going to keep doing it and put the music out myself. I love it, and and it was triggered initially by discovering that that third album that was released in Canada, uh, was remembered delete bins. Things would go into the delete bin. So they had been taken off the regular market and they were in a warehouse ready to go into the delete bins. And I happened to be in Toronto when the warehouse was in Toronto. So I drove out and picked them up, and I started selling them for $5 a piece at concerts and making money off the albums, which was the first time I'd done that. So that's what set me on the course of yeah, you can, you can put out your own music and you can sell your own music.

Christina: [00:35:00] DIY, I love it. It's a very I feel like it's a very, uh, fulfilling moment when you can have a little tiny five minute break, sit back and go, I you know, I'm not doing this entirely alone. There are people in my life and I have support, but actually, I'm an independent. I'm my own record label. Like, I'm doing it all. I can do all these things, and I can communicate directly with my fans and build on a, you know, it might be slower than the machines behind me, but, um.

Shari: [00:35:31] So as you you asked in the beginning, it my measure of success now has morphed into what I described before, that I can go in front of an audience, be incredibly comfortable, know that we're going to have this fantastic evening together. If I'm with other musicians, I feel like, wait till you hear these people play. It's so exciting. So all of that. And of course, I would like to be courted by every huge festival around the world. I'd like to be touring in Europe. I would like those things. And because I haven't handed off the reins to somebody yet, it might be a little late. So, um, that's not happening, but I am enjoying the hell out of my life. Oh that's great. And the music is getting out there, and I do have an audience. And so it's just I've just scaled it back. Um hum. Yeah.

Shari: [00:36:24] IHave some envy of of peers who are out there doing all those things. And I think, well, can you just take me along? Can I open for you?

Christina: [00:36:32] I think that's normal. I think that's normal. And I mean, at the end of the day, sometimes, you know, the fact that you're just doing it like you're. You are living the creative life and making it work. I mean, the alternative is that you just don't and you get some other some other job. Maybe it brings you joy, but likely not. If this is your passion, um, and and that you, you might be miserable. That was always my like. You're either gonna, you know, put on your big girl panties and do the work, or you're not going to get to do this ever. So what's your decision, you know?

Shari: [00:37:04] Right. Right. Yeah. That has never, ever, ever been a question for me. But I was very fortunate by going on that first tour with Vivaldi and the hometown band. And I thank Vivaldi all the time. He never actually says, you're welcome, but I. It's like. For me, because we are as a band on that first huge tour, we just did two songs every night and one of them was Flying Fear of Flying, which was probably the biggest hit. I didn't write it. Uh, Joe Mock wrote it. And so the audience got to know me, and I got to know the audience in a big way, right out of the gate. So I was 20, 27, I guess 26. Yeah.

Christina: [00:37:51] Um, I, uh, I was watching the Fear of Flying video view, um, with the hometown band, I believe, 1977. Today, I watched it. I was, you know, what struck me immediately was, oh, my God, she looks so comfortable on stage. She's so young and comfortable. And your voice was so, just so strong, and I. You know? I mean, I'm someone who. I'm taking vocal lessons now. Yes. With Emm Gryner.

Shari: [00:38:21] Yes, I love her.

Christina: [00:38:22] She's great. And I, um, uh, so before that I was on my own and, uh, you know, I've had my struggles over the years with just, um, I guess I really just had no idea what I was doing. Like, no consciousness of it was really all by. But, uh, because of that, for many, many years, um, you know, struggle with confidence and, and, um, being on video or any of that and then seeing, uh, a beautiful young woman in just, just feel looking grounded. I don't know if that was the reality. 

Shari: [00:38:56] No, it was yeah.

Christina: [00:38:57] I, that's how I would have loved to have felt.

Shari: [00:39:01] It's a very challenging thing, especially when you're young. I think, uh, and just generally I find the whole element of performance kind of odd because we're doing we're playing music because we love music, and then we put ourselves in a situation where people watch us do what we love to do. There's they're watching us. They're staring. Staring at us. Yeah. And so innately, it's, uh, it can be a very self-conscious thing to do. And I'm fascinated by the process of getting to that place where it feels no different than being in your kitchen talking to friends, and it is possible to get there. I can testify to that. And I think the reason I was able to do it from a young age was because of the pied pumkin, because we were so unselfconscious and we were so it was the spirit of the music was so powerful that we never thought about, oh my God, they're looking at me like that just wasn't in the mix. However, when the hometown band first became a big touring band, I felt the responsibility as a front person. Right? And they and so as a band of men who weren't necessarily comfortable with me and they finally came around to saying, oh, we don't really like the way you present yourself. And I was intensely self-conscious, not playing but talking.

Shari: [00:40:28] So as the front person, I it was my responsibility to interact with the audience. And I just, I felt like I didn't have anything to say and that everything I said was going to sound stupid. So it did. And, and, and I didn't feel really supported by the band, and it was very uncomfortable. So when, when that band went away and I went solo, even then, I still had a lot of players in the band, but I felt more confident because it was my music. And then when I pared it down to just a couple of players, I did so partly on purpose so that I would be forced to create a more intimate relationship with the audience. So and really own that place. And, and the biggest thing was realizing that if I took the person I was, which is this person you're talking to. Yeah. If I took that person on stage, then there was no change. I didn't have to worry about, well, who am who? Who am I going to present? What am I going to present? What am I going to be like? Who am I going to be like? And then it was a breeze. And it has been ever since. Yeah, what a concept it is.

Christina: [00:41:39] It does take an enormous amount of time for us to figure out that our job is to also be our, I found for what we for what I do anyway, is is be yourself I that's what I wanted. How? Yes. How can I just be myself and show other people that it's okay to be yourself in all kinds of situations?

Shari: [00:41:57] Yeah, and I guess it takes enough interaction with people generally in your life who you feel like they affirm you, they like you, they support you because it's so easy to go out there and think, are they gonna like me? Oh, there's a lot of things that they could not like. Are they going to see those as like, uh, yeah. So yeah, it takes a while to just integrate all of that and understand that people do like you. I mean, I presume that I like you, so.

Christina: [00:42:29] I like you. And I also have come around to some kind of acceptance that they're. Well, most of the time if if people don't like me, they're not going to come to my show. And or if they learn they don't like me, if they learn, they don't like me at my show after this amount of time of doing it and, you know, just being myself, then I probably don't need them at my future shows, you know? It's just not for them, like, so. Me, I'm not for them. That's fine. Yeah.

Shari: [00:42:56] You can't be. You can assume that in that room full of people who have paid money to see you, that they've done it because they like you.

Christina: [00:43:03] That's right. They want to come and see you be yourself, and they want to hear your, your music and and they I don't know why they say this, to be honest, but I a lot of. People will comment of like, uh, I'm not. I don't love to make mistakes when performing, but when it happens and it does, often people will be like, and that was so cool in that moment happened.

Shari: [00:43:25] And and they'll say 'That was my favorite part.'

Christina: [00:43:28] I know. I was like, what? I fucking worked hard on all the other stuff. No. Jesus. All right, back to the drawing board. Right?

Shari: [00:43:36] I often say that that's why I developed a sense of humor in the first place. Because as long as the audience is always comfortable and when you screw up, if you can make light of it. First of all, they think, oh my God, she's human. And second of all, they're so relieved that you're not making them uncomfortable about it. Yeah, and even if inside I'm going, oh, for fuck's sake, why did you do that? Or, you know, I have my little inner inner dialogue on the outside. I am making them laugh about it, and they're so grateful.

Christina: [00:44:09] Yeah, I would. Say, for fuck's sake. And then the audience likes that, but that I, I don't want to say that, but I have at times.

Shari: [00:44:19] Yeah, I have to.

Christina: [00:44:20] And they're like, oh she's, they're human. Whatever. Yeah. Like yeah. Oh my god.

Shari: [00:44:27] And when you talk, talk about things that one has learned over time. I was in a trio once where one of the members, he liked to make people uncomfortable. That was what he felt was part of his job on stage. And that was tricky for me, like the.

Christina: [00:44:46] Audience or the musicians?

Shari: [00:44:48] The audience. Well, and then us to us, probably even more than the audience, ultimately. And when I finally realized that we were at such cross purposes, I thought, no, this doesn't really work for me. And I had another, uh, person who was an accompanist who told me that he felt like when he played, that the audience was there to judge him, and he was pissed at them for judging him. I thought, okay, that does not work for me. So I stopped playing with him. Um, I had another player who was just always really just kind of dark and uptight and a little bit angry all the time. And it took a took about a year of touring with him when I thought, nah, it doesn't work for me anymore for me. Yeah.

Christina: [00:45:33] Well, on that topic, I, um, I was listening to your song Only the Heart from your album Every Road.

Shari: [00:45:40] Wow. That's an older one.

Christina: [00:45:42] Great line I'm pulling here. Um, I always get this feeling when something is really right or wrong. It's very. It was like, oh, it's a clear, beautiful. Resonates with me, I get it. It's such a beautiful song and I bet I mean, you just described moments where you're like, I'm going to go with my gut on this. I need to move on. But were there times in your life where you. Did go against that feeling and really regretted it.

Shari: [00:46:10] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, I could this is not a professional story, but I could tell you the moment in my life that was such a big lesson to listen to my instincts. Yeah. And I don't even know if you want to go here, but.

Christina: [00:46:26] Oh, I do, it's a Chat with Heart.

Shari: [00:46:29] Okay. So, uh, I was 30 years old, 1981, um, out on a run on my island, which was a different island, Salt Spring Island. And a fellow came up on a he. I passed him running up the hill, and then he he came up to me on the other side of the hill on his bike and and asked. I couldn't quite understand what he was asking me. It sounded like something had fallen off his bike and had he seen it? And anyway, the end result was that, uh, my instincts were this is weird. I don't I don't want to stop my run. Just, uh. But I the other voice said he's. This is a young guy. You should be nice to him. Uh, you should be kind. You should help. Yeah, so I did, and I ended up being grabbed with a knife around my neck and dragged into the bushes and raped. And as I finally ran away, stabbed in the back. So my big lesson was.

Christina: [00:47:25] Wow, Shari, that.

Shari: [00:47:27] I learned for a lifetime is listen to your instincts. Because my instincts said, this is weird. I'm not comfortable. And as females, we override that all the time. Because we are nurturers. We want to be helpful. We want to be kind. Yeah. And it's a hard thing to put into place. And, uh, or it is a hard thing to override. Um, but it definitely taught me that that voice must always be listened to. I mean, usually the the repercussions of not listening to it are not quite as dire, but sometimes they are, sometimes they.

Christina: [00:48:05] Yeah.

Shari: [00:48:06] You just need to remove yourself from, from that situation by listening to that voice. So, uh, I've definitely brought that into my, well, everything. But it has come to play in my professional life that I only want to be on stage with people that I feel, love me and support me. And there are lots of reasons that you pick other people to be on stage with you, um, that that are important. I mean, they do have to be good musicians. Um, but but that factor, when I did find in my solo shows people for that purpose. Um, and based on that or. No, I should say, when it happened to be those people and I realized how different it was, how different it felt that how empowering it was to feel like wherever I looked, there was support. I thought, I have to always go for that.

Christina: [00:48:58] Yeah, I love that. I don't love that you had to experience the story that you shared.

Shari: [00:49:03] Well, no. No, but I survived.

Christina: [00:49:06] You did survive.

Shari: [00:49:07] Yeah. And I am not so sorry because it I had had a fear about it for years. It's one of the reasons I moved to the island and moved out of the city. Um, but I also. But part of that fear was how would I ever cope in that moment? How would I survive in that moment? And I survived by by going directly to try to get to the heart of that person. And instinctively I just started talking. Yeah, I talked and I and asked questions and I, I humanized myself, and that's what my instincts told me to do. And that was, you know, I didn't lose my life. I did not have, uh, lifelong emotional scars from it because I was old enough and had had enough experience in life to know how to how to process it. Um, um, so it's it's made me a stronger, better person.

Christina: [00:50:10] You are strong. Yeah. It's also probably informed your music, your writing, your topics, your.

Shari: [00:50:20] Well, I have written a couple songs about it, but just a couple. Not as many as I have about divorce.

Christina: [00:50:26] But hey, there's another great topic.

Christina: [00:50:30] Hey, you know, to get to the good stuff in life, you have to, I guess sometimes, I mean, I, uh, my recent album, storm, is not about loving the metaphorical storms in my life, but about being having at least some appreciation for who I am today. Um, because of the hardships and because of the loss, because of the trauma and.

Shari: [00:50:53] And how you managed it.

Christina: [00:50:54] How you. Yeah. How you got up after the fall and, uh, and and. Yeah. So an appreciation and a gratitude and a thankful, you know, for that. But not loving the things that happened, which yeah, I think uh, yeah.

Shari: [00:51:08] Yeah, yeah. Um, and never wanting them to happen again.

Christina: [00:51:13] That's right. Well, yeah. Totally. My spider senses from a young, you know, girl that I developed as, um, because of my trauma. Um, they helped me keep me safe later in life. I mean, there's no denying it. And maybe I was over, and I'm an over analytical person, but also, that's also to my benefit sometimes too, right? Like. Yeah. So yeah, I'll take it. I'll take me, you know.

Shari: [00:51:37] Exactly.

Christina: [00:51:38] I'll take you.

Shari: [00:51:39] Um, and then you take take that person on stage.

Christina: [00:51:42] That's right. It's a huge hit. It's a it's a work in progress. It's a work in progress. Speaking of taking the stage, I'm excited. Uh, we're going to put this episode out soon because, uh, I do want to let people know that we are going to be on the same stage together soon.

Shari: [00:52:02] Finally.

Christina: [00:52:03] I'm so grateful to you for this. Thank you. So, SongBird North, this is a this is a series that you have really given wings to. For one, how long have you been doing this?

Shari: [00:52:14] I think it's I think this is year 28th coming up.

Christina: [00:52:18] That's incredible. I've not done anything for 28 years other than exercise. I don't think I've committed to it. Yeah. It's incredible.

Shari: [00:52:25] For 28 years. Yes. Um, yes. It's quite amazing. I certainly didn't start out intending it to be so long lasting, and I don't know how much longer it'll last, because there's a lot of changes at the Songwriters Association of Canada. But I did decide when I thought they were going to pull the plug before 2024, that I would carry it on anyway, even though I'd been kind of hoping, like, okay, I'm kind of tired of doing this. I'm tired of organizing it. I'm not tired of the event, just like everything else in music. Um, but it has been. A fantastic experience to create a stage 4 or 5 times a year with four different writers. That includes me as the host. I don't often do as many songs as the other writers, because I figure the audience has seen plenty of me, um, and put together this un. A combination of people who normally would not be sharing a stage and experiencing the alchemy that happens as a result of that, it's going to it's unlike any other evening in their lives, in our lives, for the audience. And it's yeah, it's a wonderful thing to be able to to, uh, offer that kind of opportunity up for both the audience and the writers.

Christina: [00:53:46] I'm pumped like, I, I don't go out West much. And the reason I'm going is because of this, and I'm it was a no brainer when I was like, well, this is this, I will go, I would go for and yeah, listen, I don't want to take well, I do want to take all your time, but I'm not going to, um, I've never taken enough. But I have this goodbye that I write out because I. I'll fuck it up if I don't read it. Um, I have like, a little.

Shari: [00:54:10] We're finishing. We're done.

Christina: [00:54:12] Well. No, no, we don't have to just. But we have to. We have to have, like, we.

Shari: [00:54:16] I just came here. Listen, it's like I came to your house and we haven't even eaten yet.

Christina: [00:54:22] You have to go walk. You got your fax machine was buzzing. You got a lot of rehearsing to do. Yeah, you got to. Rehearse and, um. No, no, no. Well, first of all, before I read my goodbye, because we do have to have, like, a something at the end. And I like to gush about you for a second, but, uh, I was checking on your Spotify. You know how you can look at the part? Uh, there's a section that's like, you might also like these artists and. Okay, I don't know if you have any idea who is on that list. Okay.

Shari: [00:54:50] No idea.

Christina: [00:54:51] Three real heavy hitters. Are you ready for this?

Shari: [00:54:53] Yeah.

Christina: [00:54:54] Christine McVie.

Shari: [00:54:57] Yeah.

Christina: [00:54:58] Bee Gees. Is that a surprise.

Shari: [00:55:03] Yeah.

Christina: [00:55:04] And get this ABBA.

Shari: [00:55:09] What the hell?

Christina: [00:55:12] I was really impressed. I would love to have that under my Spotify.

Shari: [00:55:16] Is that the list?

Christina: [00:55:18] There were more. There was like, um, a deep dive into 70s pop. There was like, like a playlist, and, uh, you should check it out. Check it out,

Shari: [00:55:25] I should. The reason I, when you said Christine McVie, I was thinking of the McVie that is married to David Foster. And for a second, it took me, like compute who that was.

Christina: [00:55:36] Doesn't seem like Shari cares about this comparison or knows Christine McVie.

Shari: [00:55:40] It just took me a second. That's okay. That's okay. Funny.

Christina: [00:55:44] Um, okay, I'm gonna read you my little goodbye statement. It's going to sound romantic, but I'm not hitting on you.

Shari: [00:55:49] Before you do, I have a question for you.

Christina: [00:55:52] Oh, yeah. Sure.

Shari: [00:55:52] Do I have vocal fry?

Christina: [00:55:55] Vocal fry?

Shari: [00:55:55] Have you noticed that? Do you know what vocal fry is? Oh, no.

Christina: [00:55:58] Oh. Um, I mean, I yeah, there's a little like, um. Ah. I mean, it's not anything. It doesn't sound bad or anything, but.

Shari: [00:56:08] I don't know, I. I heard an interview recently where I heard it, I hate it in other people. So I when I heard it in myself, I was horrified. And of course, I have not thought about it through this entire interview to try and avoid it, but. Okay, carry on with your goodbye. Okay.

Christina: [00:56:24] But it's not. It's not like a wild level of okay, I just heard like a nice little there's like a little raspiness at times. Okay. But it's early and you slept in and you were coughing, so all those things are really hard on your vocals, right?

Shari: [00:56:41] Right.

Christina: [00:56:42] Tell you what. Next time you do an interview, okay? Just guzzle, um, castor oil or. No, wait. Like, like, just lubricate your throat.

Shari: [00:56:51] Lube up. 

Christina: [00:56:54] No. Oh my God. Okay, okay, okay. Uh, okay, I'm reading it like.

Shari: [00:56:59] Okay. That's fine.

Christina: [00:57:00] Goodbye. There's more.

Shari: [00:57:04] Well done.

Christina: [00:57:05] There's more. Shari. From the moment I met you, it felt like I'd always known you. I am in awe of your genuine and quality voice, your skills on multiple instruments, your songwriting as it resonates with me and inspires me. Thank you for inviting me to share your audience in Vancouver at Songbird North multiple times now, and for always responding to my emails over many, many years. It is an absolute privilege and a pleasure to get to know you more. I can't wait to see you and hear your music again live. You are a Canadian gem, an icon, a kind and generous human. Stay awesome and let me know if you need me for anything. Thank you.

Shari: [00:57:55] Awe.

Christina: [00:57:58] We did it.

Shari: [00:58:01] And that's how you end your podcast.

Song 'I Don't Want to Say Goodbye To You': [00:58:12] I don't want to say goodbye to you. I don't want to say goodbye to you.

Heartbeat Hotline: [00:58:28] Welcome to the heartbeat hotline one 902-669-4769. I'm the host of a chat with heart podcast, Christina Martin, and I'm so excited you called. Leave me your question, suggestion for the podcast or a comment about this episode. Please be aware your message may be used on the podcast and social media. Tell me your name, where you're calling from and it's also fine if you want to remain anonymous. Thanks for listening. Have a great fucking day!

Christina: [00:59:00] Thanks for listening to a chat with her at podcast produced by me, Christina Martin. Co-produced and engineered by my husband Dale Murray. Dale is a stellar singer, songwriter and music producer, so check out his website dalemurray.ca. The podcast theme song 'Talk about It' and 'I Don't Want to Say Goodbye to You' were written by me and recorded by Dale. Visit my bandcamp to find a CDs, vinyl, digital music and fun merch like custom made puzzles and temporary tattoo packs. Become a monthly or yearly supporter of this podcast and my music endeavors on Patreon. If you're new to Patreon, it's a membership platform that helps creators get paid. I love it! Sign up is a free or paid member at Patreon.com/ChristinaMartin. I would love it if you had time to share rate, leave a review and subscribe to a chat with heart on all the places you listen to podcasts. Wishing you, my little heartbeat listeners, a great day.