Rudie Hayes - UK Radio DJ, Music Nerd and Lover of Nature.

Christina chats with longtime friend and iconic radio DJ Rudie Hayes. Rudie is an ecologist, environmentalist, and forester, based in the UK, he is an advocate of the health benefits of woodlands.

A runner, and football coach he is a total music nerd. Writing on Americana, Folk and Acoustic artists for 20 years, he has been a promoter, drummer, compare of festivals - he'll do anything to get good music heard.

His passion has always been radio - he hosted the award winning "Horseshoe Lounge Radio Show" for 5 years as well as founding a local community station in his adopted home town of York. 

Chapters

• 0:00 Greetings from Christina
• 0:30 Theme Song - Talk About It
• 0:56 Introduction by Christina
• 6:07 Postcards from Frank
• 14:19 The Horseshoe Lounge - How we met
• 16:29 Music Reviews - A Dying Art?
• 20:40 Listening with appreciation for all kinds of music
• 26:17 Musical background and hometown
• 36:04 Magic in music
• 45:28 Radio is awesome
• 51:15 Collecting Islands
• 55:41 Cheryl, Johnny and Frank say hello!
• 59:33 Heartbeat Hotline 1(902)-669-4769
• 1:02:00 Podcast Credits
• 1:02:24 Support the Podcast on Patreon

Transcript

Christina: [00:00:02] Welcome to A Chat With Heart Podcast. I'm your host, Christina Martin. I'm here to help guide heartfelt conversations with new and old friends I've met from just being alive or touring my music around North America and other parts of the world. I chat with people I feel a kinship with and that I genuinely believe we can learn from. Our personal stories have great power to heal, influence and inspire. All we have to do is show up for the conversation.

Podcast Theme Song 'Talk About It': [00:00:31] If we just talk about it, we could shine a light, we can break a dark day. If we just talk about it, we can cut a way, we can make a brighter day.

Christina: [00:00:56] Hey there. So a bit of a break between the last episode we posted with my dear friend Ryan McGrath and this one today. The reason for that, if you're curious, was Dale was away. He had this great gig at, Dale for any new listeners, Dale Murray who engineers and co-produces this podcast A Chat With Heart, he's with me and he's actually sitting right in front of me. I'm looking at his back while he's staring at his console as I record this introduction. Hi, Dale.

Dale: [00:01:33] Hi.

Christina: [00:01:35] Dale was away. He got a great summer gig acting and performing in a movie, so he was on tour in Europe for a portion of the summer, performing in a band called The Shit Rockers. And they were opening for Billy Bob Thornton at some venues around Europe, and that was really exciting for him. And now he's back and he's busy all the way up until we are both leaving for a fall tour. 36 tour dates in Europe. Um, when the album comes out, new album comes out September 1st, and so he's back and we're able to finish up two episodes, this one and another one, and that will wrap up season two of a Chat with Heart Podcast. I'm excited to take a little break because during that break we'll be doing what we love and getting out and playing and singing for people. And you know what? I'm going to be even more excited and dreaming and scheming my guests for season three.

Christina: [00:02:47] So in the meantime, if you're new, you can catch up to 20 episodes of season one, 20 episodes of season two, and then you'll be all caught up and ready for season three. And don't forget, there's a heartbeat hotline. You can call and leave a message, ask a question, leave a prank voicemail. Maybe it'll make it to a podcast episode in the future. If you want to call the Heartbeat Hotline, dial 1-902-669-4769. You can leave your question for me any time. So my guest today, Rudie Hayes, was one of the first to play my music in the United Kingdom and also the first to chat with me in person on a radio show, I believe in the UK, and when we performed in York, I think this would have been for the first time, maybe back in 2000 maybe 14 or 15. Rudy came to the show and he reviewed the show for AmericanaUK and Rudy introduced me to his awesome family, Cheryl, his two sons, their two sons, Johnny and Frank, and his son Frank has been a pen pal of mine ever since, so I'm really happy to share this chat with a long time supporter of my creative endeavours, and not just mine. He's been supporting loads of other musicians from around the globe. People ask me all the time, How do you get your music heard? And the short answer is, with the help of people like Rudie. Rudie is an ecologist, an environmentalist, a forester.He's based in the UK. He's an advocate for the health and benefits of The Woodlands. He's a runner. He's a football coach. He's a total music nerd. He's written on Americana, folk and acoustic artists for for over 20 years he's been a promoter, a drummer, a supporter of festivals. And he's not dead yet. Like, there's more to come from Rudie Hayes. His passion has always been radio. He hosted the award winning Horseshoe Lounge radio show for five years, as well as founding a local community station in his adopted hometown of York. And I love radio. And I love Rudy Hayes. I hope you enjoy this delightful chat with one of my long time supporters and friends. And for those of you listening in the UK, I have posted most if not all, of my 2024 UK tour dates promoting will be promoting my new album, Storm. And since our 2020 tour was cancelled due to the pandemic, we had put out a stripped down album called Wonderful Lies. So we'll have that with us as well. It's going to be Dale and me back in the UK again. We look forward to seeing all of you at the shows. Here's my chat with Rudie Hayes.

Christina: [00:06:07] I want to start by reading you some of my most beautiful postcards from your son, Frank.

Rudie: [00:06:16] Okay. Yeah.

Christina: [00:06:18] Because, listen, so Frank and I. Hi, Frank.

Rudie: [00:06:22] What I should tell you is, what I should tell you is that Frank won't write. Okay. So, like, he won't write. He doesn't like to write. Yeah, he won't hold a pen. He's not interested in writing. He won't. He won't make his mark. He won't sign his name. He won't do his signature. He won't do anything. You know he doesn't. That's. He doesn't like it. He doesn't like how it looks. He doesn't like doing it. He doesn't enjoy it. Etcetera, etcetera. Yeah. There is only one person he has ever written to. Not his grandma, not his, not his nanny, not his tied. Not girlfriends, not boyfriends, not his mum, not his dad. There is only ever one person that he has ever wrote and written to.

Christina: [00:07:07] I'm the only one.

Rudie: [00:07:09] You are the only one.

Christina: [00:07:10] And I am so honoured. And I love. I've kept all the postcards. I read them sometimes and it reminds me of our special, I think, relationship. So I should tell our listeners that the intention of these was to make each other laugh. I don't have the ones I sent him. I can only imagine what horrible things I've said to to Frank. 

Rudie: [00:07:40] He has a dressing table with a glass top with a piece of glass on the top, a wooden dressing table with a glass top and under it we slide tickets, things, you know, that he's done. And your postcards.

Christina: [00:07:55] Oh, my God. I want to come visit and I want to see that. I want to compare the burns because his are really good. Okay, So yeah, I'll just start by reading some of these. I also want to say that I had the absolute privilege and pleasure of meeting your mom, who I don't know if she approved of this relationship I have with Frank. I think she was a little concerned, perhaps when she read the postcards initially. And I'm so sorry for your loss, but I have such fond memories of my visit with Dale at your house and your mom was there. And. Yeah, so I apologize if I don't know if she's paying attention somewhere. I think it's.

Rudie: [00:08:39] Sort of I think she was jealous because she couldn't get Frank to write. So she would send Frank things in the post and, you know, and he would go, Yeah, that's great. Thanks, Manny. But yeah, you never get a reply.

Christina: [00:08:55] Damn, she was really jealous of me that whole time. Fuck. Okay, um, this. This one has a, on the front of the postcard it says North Yorkshire Moors Railway. And it has like, um. It has these old. I don't know. Like coal. Trains and. Yeah, so Frank says.

Rudie: [00:09:22] So do you have the TV show Heartbeat?

Christina: [00:09:24] No.

Rudie: [00:09:25] It's an English TV show. And it's like a like a retro thing, uh, going back in time, and it's like, um. After the war type thing. Yeah. And it's like a it's really, it's really numb. It's like a it's kind of soap opera. Sunday night kind of family viewing thing. And it's shot on this railway line. Oh, cool. It's sort of about this kind of railway line. Yeah,

Christina: [00:09:52] That's a fun fact. Okay, so Frank said, So here's some some old trains here on the front for he says. Here. Christina, are some old boilers just like you. Um, so here's another postcard from Frank, and it's a lovely image of a kitty cat on the front. And I think it's like there's like some music notes on there and it's playing a flute or something. And. And this is what Frank wrote to me. Christina. My cat licks its bum. So do you love Frank? I mean, I love that he ends it with a very loving like, you know. 

Rudie: [00:10:38] Yeah yeah. I mean, he holds you in quite high esteem.

Christina: [00:10:39] Yeah, clearly. Um, okay. This one is. It says House of Parliament and London. London, England. Don't know if there's another. Yeah, there's a London, Ontario. So I guess I should clarify. 

Rudie: [00:10:53] You have Houses of Parliament in Ontario?

Christina: [00:10:57] We have houses of Parliament in Ontario. Yeah, for sure. Okay. Just. And not in London, Ontario, though. Okay. They're in Ottawa. So, uh, anyway, there's some double decker buses going across the big bridge. But the point is, houses of parliament, that's what we're seeing on the postcard. And Frank writes. Here, Christina, is where we keep dull old people. You should be here, Frank. Um. Yeah.

Rudie: [00:11:28] Okay.

Christina: [00:11:29] This is. This one's great, too. I love the the brevity, brevity of some of them. It's a bunch of farm animals on the front of this. This one was a postcard from the Maverick Festival.

Rudie: [00:11:41] It was Yeah. So the horse on the front of there, that's the Suffolk punch.

Christina: [00:11:46] What does that mean. 

Rudie: [00:11:47] On the front of that. So it's a special type of horse that you only get at Maverick Festival in the area where Maverick is.

Christina: [00:11:55] Oh, wow. Okay.

Rudie: [00:11:56] You don't get that horse anywhere else in the UK.

Christina: [00:11:59] Very cool. Well, I think he's referring to the horse when he says on the postcard. Hey, Christina, you've got a big head. Love, Frank. Um, this one. This one's great, too. The. The picture on the front is just some guy jumping up, doing the splits in the air, and he's got, like, a very big smiley expression on his face. Dear Christina, you have a weasel. Bum face. Love, Frank. That's good.

Rudie: [00:12:32] I don't think that's, I don't think that's true. Is it?

Christina: [00:12:35] Well,

Rudie: [00:12:35] Do you have weasels? Do you have weasels in Canada?

Christina: [00:12:37] We have weasels. Yeah, we do. And I don't know. It depends. I mean, like, sometimes when I wake up, my face doesn't look that great. I mean, I do wear makeup and stuff. Not much today, but anyway, this one is this lovely postcard. It says, Let's grow old together on the front. And there's a tree and a picture of a human holding the tree. And it says, This tree. Frank says, this tree stump, this tree stump looks like your legs, I think because it's kind of chunky and wide. And I thought that was hilarious because that could happen. Not now, but like someday I could get.

Rudie: [00:13:18] And the same color maybe.

Christina: [00:13:22] Yeah, the same color. Yeah. Particularly if I if I suffer from poor circulation in at some point which or varicose veins overtake me. I'm, I think Frank must know that I'm afraid of worms in this postcard he sent me on the front there is a worm and some other some other woodland animals. And he says, Christina, this worm reminds me of you. Love Frank. Um. Oh, this is my favorite. I think this front of the postcard is black with white text. It says, Don't want to be an American idiot. And on the back, Frank says, Dear Christina, you're already a Canadian one. Love, Frank. And thus concludes the segment called Postcards. 

Rudie: [00:14:17] Frank Says. Unkind things my son says about Christina.

Christina: [00:14:19] Oh, my gosh. I want. I want to have him on someday. And I want him to read the ones I sent him. But let's start out by chatting about where we met. Let's let the listeners know. I mean, I know when we first met in person, it was on your radio show Horseshoe Lounge radio show. But.

Rudie: [00:14:36] You were on before that? Not in person, but you were recorded down the line. Before that. You were my only down the line person recorded before that.

Christina: [00:14:47] Because you had to have people in person.

Rudie: [00:14:49] Well, yeah, I always, uh, so I used to produce a radio show called the Horseshoe Lounge Music Session.

Christina: [00:14:56] Award winning award, winning.

Rudie: [00:14:58] On a on a local independent, uh, station here in the UK. And I used to, at the same time as I was doing that, I used to work for a website called Americana UK, which I guess is trying to get the Americana music sound old country sound, sort of more widely known in the UK, run by a bunch of nerdy enthusiasts, of which I was one at the time. And at the same time as I had this community radio show thing that did quite well for a while and I got given your album to review. So we used to get given. Whatever it was, ten albums a month or something to review, which I reviewed. And I reviewed your album. And then you, I think you said wrote and said, Thank you for the album review. So I clearly did a nice job or said nice things about it at the time. And I'd said, Oh, do you want to come on my radio show? And at the time I was sort of experimenting with a technology. This is pre Covid and all of that sort of stuff. And we weren't doing this hold down the line thing and you came on and we managed to work out the time differences and all of those sorts of things. And I recorded you live into the studio and we played some tracks with a view to hopefully using that to generate some press to get you to be able to come to the UK and then play some gigs and all of that sort of stuff. Um, it worked and yeah, it worked. Yeah. And then you, you've been on, you came on 2 or 3 more times after that, including playing in my home town too.

Christina: [00:16:29] Yeah. No, that was really fun. We had a lovely visit. I want to hear more about York in a second, but I do credit you as one of the big reasons you and my publicist, Steve Rose in the UK, you know, because we like when we get these great write ups, which you are a really great writer like you are, you are a music nerd, you love music. Um, you are really good at writing about music, which, you know, is actually a dying art form, particularly over here. And we're often times, you know, looking for the great write ups from, from writers in your neck of the woods. And so you are a dying breed. And unfortunately and I don't know why I'm going to assume it's because people stopped paying people and everybody's busy and overworked. I don't know.

Rudie: [00:17:21] I also think people people don't read like the thing about Americana is if I wanted to write 350 words about an album, I could write 350 words about an album. If I wanted to write 30 about an album, I could also write 30. It doesn't matter. It's the album is good or bad. If I had 30 good words to say about it, I could write a review that there was no. Editorially, you were allowed to say the things that you wanted to say in the in the space that you did, but you had to be able to stand by the thing that you that you'd written about. The other thing as well is that it was now it's not so much it's not so uncommon because there's a there's a sort of groundswell of a sort of undercurrent of kindness in things. And that whole don't say if you can't say something kind, then just don't say it. And if you get ten albums to review in a month and it's not your job, it's just because you like listening to people's records and, and, you know, hopefully putting some words out to it. If if somebody sends you a record and you don't like it, you know, I don't like every record that I got sent.

Rudie: [00:18:23] I didn't review every record I got sent. I just said nice things about the records that I thought were nice records or I thought the record was interesting or had something to say or was something different in some way, or brought a, uh, a new or a different slant on something that a UK audience may not hear or be able to access access as well. Then I would say something about it. You have a almost like a duty or I felt there was a duty to if you have something nice to say, then say it. But also if you can inform in some way or another, then you should use your ability, however, that is to to inform as well at the same time. And now it's it's really hard to get somebody to read more than 150 words. I was asked reasonably recently to write an album review. I'd written an album review for somebody. They liked my album review, and they said, Could I boil down a version to write for a tabloid newspaper? They wanted 40 words I'd written, I don't know, 300, 400 words, and they wanted me to turn that into 40 words for a tabloid newspaper.

Rudie: [00:19:38] It's really hard to boil that down into the essence of why I like the thing in the first place. And you almost end up saying, you know, it's it's ten tracks long and it's got guitars on it and there's a male and female voice. 40 words is done. Doesn't really tell you anything or give you any flavour of the thing that you're trying to comment on. And so yeah, so when you when you get a record like the record that I got sent, that was yours and I liked it, you say something nice about it, you hope somebody reads it. Ideally the artist reads it as amongst everything else and they think, Yeah, that person's either understood the thing that I've tried to do or they found something in it that I didn't know myself, that that's happened to me a few times. I've heard something that they didn't really mean, but they can see where I've got the essence of it from. And then, um, hopefully they like the thing that you've said and then hopefully other people like the thing that you, you like and you get to go see them or. They get to make another record or something along those lines.

Christina: [00:20:40] Something you said earlier was interesting. It made me think of just the way that you listen to an album that somebody sends you or like any anybody wanting to just kind of broaden your, you know, your what you are listening to. I guess you could try listening for the interesting things you may not like, like you may not be into hip hop, but can you listen to it from sort of a seed of just like, is there anything in there I find interesting or unique or like listening it not from like, I'm a fan of a house music, dance music, listen to it just with complete openness for something unique and different.

Rudie: [00:21:19] And I mean, I've got as well as Frank, I have another son, so I got two teenage boys. So I got a 15 year old and a 19 year old. And clearly the music that a 15 year old and a 19 year old is absolutely not the music that a 50 something year old is listening to. And my music to them is just like ancient and slow and unintelligible as theirs is to me. And that is absolutely the way that it should be. But when I. So the younger boy, you know, he likes you or not now so much, but two years ago, three years ago, when he was finding his way in music and discovering what he liked, you know, he liked Stormzy and Dave and all of that sort of UK South London grime thing. And you know, does it speak to me?

Christina: [00:22:11] Never heard of them. No.

Rudie: [00:22:13] You know, it doesn't really speak to me, but and I don't really understand the rhythms and the timings and, and the so forth. But in a way it's captured a moment in time that The Cure or the Smiths or something captured to me at their time. And it speaks to you in that moment in time. And what you hope is that that that music, musical literacy that you gain then or artistic literacy that you gain at that point is of a sufficient quality or you have a sufficient connection with it, that then that grows from that point. And, you know, do I like to listen to Stormzy? Not particularly. Do I think that he produces stuff of worth or of merit? Absolutely. He's probably the most. Important artist to come out of the UK in the last ten years and he has shaped everything that comes behind it. Do I understand it? Not particularly. Does it appeal to me? Not especially. But do I see its value and its worth 100%? The impact that then has on my son, his chums, to want to listen to music, to want to play music, to want to just have music on when they're doing whatever the shit is that they're doing all of the time and surround themselves with it. That's all you can hope for and that you hope that in.

Rudie: [00:23:37] Whatever it is, 40 years time, 30 years time when Johnny is me and maybe he has children, too. They're also saying to him, What the hell is this? You're listening to ET Cetera. Et cetera. And you know, and the cycle self-perpetuates at the same time. Johnny will listen to Oasis and Blur and all those very English things that are our musical core DNA that no matter how many times we go, well, the guitar is dead. Eventually that, you know, stones, Beatles, axis bubbles to the top, whether it's Oasis in or not, quite my generation, but the generation sort of slightly after me. Cure and the Smiths, my generation. Oasis followed behind it. Now you've got Sam Fender. You know, all of it comes through time and time again. And you just hope that you you can provide people, including your own kids, with enough musical literacy that they can go out and find their own things and hunt for stuff. And when people say, like a bit of everything. No, you don't. You don't like Iron Maiden and the thing what you don't know, what you haven't got is the musical literacy to know what it is that you want, and then to go on that discovery and find it.

Rudie: [00:24:58] And there's plenty of things that come that will pop up on Spotify and I think is absolutely awful. But there's plenty of, you know, for every every time that happens, there's something that will stop you in your tracks and go, Oh, that's the thing. Yeah, that's the thing that I really like. And particularly when you work in music and you particularly when you work in music and you aren't a musician, which is me, you, you're looking for those moments that make you stop and go, Oh, what is that? Or that's an interesting phrase, or I really like the way that that isn't the chorus there. That's something else that comes in and we only get that bit once and it wasn't it. Why is that? Five bars and not four and whatever it is that the thing that stimulates you and that's the thing that you're always looking for because that gives you copy, that gives you words, that stimulates you to, you know, makes the synapses run and make you want to put the thing on a piece of paper and send it to your editor. And hopefully he doesn't think you're a pretentious idiot. Yeah, okay. So he probably does think you're a pretentious idiot, but and normally you are a pretentious idiot. But, you know.

Christina: [00:25:58] Wait a minute. Is guitar, did you just say guitar is dead? Like, should I not bring Dale with me to the UK? Does that mean.

Rudie: [00:26:04] You can just send Dale? As far as I'm concerned, you know that.

Christina: [00:26:06] Just send him, right? Yeah.

Rudie: [00:26:09] You know.

Christina: [00:26:09] You know that we are going to start just putting his face on the poster. And, um.

Rudie: [00:26:14] A poster just for me? Yeah, it'll be fine.

Christina: [00:26:17] Just for you. Oh believe me, there will be others who want to pick that up. Um, you did not grow up in York. Where did you grow up? And. And what? What were those? You said you already mentioned some of them. But I want you to. I want you to go into it again because I'm sure you miss. Who was the musical? What was the musical love for you?

Rudie: [00:26:36] Yeah. So I so those of you that because obviously your listenership will be worldwide. So so so I'm in the UK, you're talking to me in the UK and the UK is effectively a sort of triangle, a right angle triangle to all intents and purposes, with Scotland at the top, London in the bottom right hand corner. And then I grew up on the point of the triangle on the far extreme left. So I'm closer to France than I am to London. I'm actually, uh, I'm actually closer to France than the nearest city to where I grew up in the UK. So from my parents window you could see France on a sunny day, so 22 miles from France in what we call the southwest. Yeah. And a and a county Devon which has Plymouth in it, the naval port at one end, and Exeter, a medieval city at the other. And I grew up in a very small market town, seaside town on the coast on the edge of, of Devon. Really idyllic, um, working class family, all of those sorts of things, not particularly musical parents. My parents liked music. They weren't musical, they didn't play they. But music was around us. My mum was obsessed with Elvis. She loved Elvis. My dad liked Dr. Hook and Bread and the Eagles and all of that sort of stuff. Um, and so it was around us all the time. My parents always had the radio on. We didn't really watch TV or have TV. In fact, for quite a long time growing up, my parents had a TV, but we didn't have a sort of family TV. We sat together at mealtimes, we didn't watch TV, um, that sort of stuff.

Rudie: [00:28:14] And, and music was around us all the time. My dad had a one of those what we would call a ghetto blaster back then with the big speakers and the handle and all the rest of it. And he used to own cassettes and he used to listen to, like I say, Dr. Hook and Bread and Simon and Garfunkel and stuff like that. So very 70s, safe kind of stuff. I guess that I looking back at that now, I can see that's why I'm that's why like a harmony. That's why. Like a kind of more chilled kind of relaxed thing to what I've got a country tinge to stuff. And my mum, she was really into Elvis and uh, and country music. She loved Don Williams, you know, absolutely loved Don Williams. And I was gonna listen to Don Williams a couple of days ago. Actually. I still listen to Don Williams now. It's got a voice like a warm bath. It's just, yeah, every day just feels like, just put that on and it'll be great. Everything will be great that day. So we grew up listening to that. And then my grandfather, who, uh, who lived very local to us, he sang, I mean, like in a baritone voice and incredibly loud and fancied himself as a bit of sort of a Frank Sinatra crooner type, was quite a handsome man, was always very dapper and well dressed and all the rest of it be a huge disappointment to him if he saw me in t shirts and jeans all the time.

Christina: [00:29:38] Oh No.

Rudie: [00:29:40] But, um, and so that's just sort of around and then had, you know, all the usual stuff played in terrible bands as a youth and through as a drummer. Yeah, yeah. I was a drummer in bands. Yeah. Really poor drummer in really poor bands, but was really into that whole late 80s, early 90s UK indie scene. So it was all stuff like Wonderstuff census things, Mega City four properly itself, all those sort of indie sort of pre-grunge kind of bands pre Britpop. And then obviously Britpop came along and we all thought we were Oasis or Blur or Cast or Pulp or all of these sort of bands. But I was just on the edge of that by being just a bit too old by I had a drum kit and a good job and an estate car or a van. So I always got in bands because I had all of those three attributes. Yeah, yeah. Um, and then I started and that sort of stuff, but that sort of 80s indie stuff quite Gothy So Cure, Mission Sisters of Mercy, all of that sort of stuff. Now I've got absolutely no hair at all, as you as you're aware. Christina I'm completely follically challenged, but back then I'd hair to my waist and was really into that whole goth scene. My mum used to dye my hair for me, you know, primrose yellow bathroom sink to make my hair black and all the rest of it.

Rudie: [00:31:04] I will tell you tale I've told I've told it before, but I'll tell you the tale. Um, so on a Saturday afternoon, sorry, Sunday afternoon, there was a guy called Johnny Walker. He's quite a famous radio deejay here in the UK, spent time in the States. He's really well known, sort of 70s style, um, fm AOR kind of music and, and really, um, one of those guys that sets so many bands on the road to success, you know, discovered bands, played bands, but was has got that slightly old fashioned kind of 80s FM kind of feel. All right, let's go, let's play. You know, it's the Bachman Turner and the Overdrive. All right, great mates, let's play, you know, all of that sort of stuff, you know, FM 42 and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. Spent time in the States, done all the pirate radio stuff. He played, um, uh, Steve Earle, Copperhead Road on the radio. First time I'd ever heard anything like it. And I was sat at my at my desk in my bedroom. I'd be 14 or some 15, something like that. And he played it and I wrote it down. And on Monday, on my way home from school or college, I forget which, I went and bought it on cassette.

Rudie: [00:32:17] And that's basically at that point music changed forever because at that point I realized there was something other than the top 40 and the charts. And then from there I discovered, you know, the Cure and Half Man, Half Biscuit and Steve Earle and the Rainmakers and just a whole plethora of other sounding hoodoo gurus and, uh, Tragically Hip  - Road Apples. I remember buying that in Plymouth, going down to Plymouth. We'd gone to buy a drum kit and there wasn't anything in the pawn shop. So we were racing around Plymouth looking record shops and bought, um, Road Apples and Yeah, and just then I just realized this, this, this all this other music that you don't hear. Yeah. And then when I realized where you could hear that late night radio, then I was sold and then I was obsessed. Ever since, that's made me want to be on the radio. That made me want to play bands, that made me want to write about it, that made me want to be in it, that made me want it to date the girls that played the bass guitar in the band of the thing that played in the pub, whatever it was, all of it from that point onwards.

Christina: [00:33:21] Amazing. That's funny. Steve Earle had a well, I mean, I mean, I, I was just so clueless about, I think, a lot of good music until I moved to Austin and people in Austin were listening to Steve Earle and. Long list of, you know, Townes Van Zandt, and Lucinda Williams and and Wilco. The Jayhawks. Patty Griffin. And and that's what changed me.

Rudie: [00:33:46] It's that family tree. You know, it's like and it's and I, you know, and I don't want to sound like some terrible, crusty old fossil, but my kids and. And. And the generation below me. Oh, that Spotify generation. And they missed that mine that we had or I had. I'm not including you in this, but that I had where I would get the sleeve or the cassette record or the whatever. And I and I and you know, and lots of people don't. And you were rightly said earlier on, I am a nerd. I, I absolutely care who played the trumpet on the, on the middle eight in the middle of whatever you know. Oh yeah. And I can still tell you, I can remember, um, I was listening to Billy Bragg and uh, he until that point had always done sort of solo records, just him and his guitar or him and Wiggy. And then he made an album called Waiting for the Great Leap Forward. And on that album there's a song where he plays and there's a woman plays the trumpet alongside him, and it's really sad and it's really mournful and it's beautiful. I mean, it it will melt the stoniest of hearts. And I look at the sleeve and go, Oh, that's Cara Tivey Oh, that's cool. And I still remember that.

Rudie: [00:35:01] That must be. 35 years ago. And I still know that Cara Tivey played the trumpet on that particular because it and then you go, Oh, well, I wonder what else she's done. And then you find that she's she's on Kirsty McCall's records and she played with Johnny Marr and she was in the the and you know and you get that family tree and out you go and you go, okay I'll go back to that play on, on that record and then they're on there and then you know, then you go and see and you start, then you then discover bands come to towns and you can go and see them and there's universities and universities have bands on and you can go there, you can drink horrible beer out of plastic glasses, but you can see all of these bands because they all come around on tour. And when you discover that, then you're lost. That's it. That's the end of your life and that's how it's going to be for you forever and still. Now, in my 50s, I'm spending my time going to horrible, dingy rooms to watch on a sticky carpet and drinking terrible warm beer out of plastic glasses to go and watch these people that I've then discovered and played all these places. And it's a.

Christina: [00:36:03] It's great.

Rudie: [00:36:04] Compunction or an addiction. I don't know, because I'm not the because I'm not the I'm not the person creating it. It feels like watching a magic show.

Christina: [00:36:13] Oh, wow.

Rudie: [00:36:13] Because because we have this conversation, you and I or me and Dale have this conversation, and you seem like a perfectly reasonable, normal person to me. And we have a nice conversation. How are you? I'm fine. It's Dale with you and all of that thing. And then you pick up your guitar and out of your mouth comes this sound and you think, Where the actual fuck did that come from? 

Christina: [00:36:34] We don't know.

Rudie: [00:36:35] Where do those words come? And and you there's not a moment that you don't see that and think to yourself as a non-playing non-musician person, that you don't go, fuck me. Witchcraft. That's the only excuse for that.

Christina: [00:36:49] Yes, I did just order a Ouija board. It's coming tomorrow. Um, I often wonder myself as a musician who writes songs, who's a singer songwriter for the months on end sometimes where I'm not writing and I'm, you know, like and then we'll go to rehearse and we'll play the song, and I'm like, I don't know how, Like, how did I don't even know how I wrote that song? I don't even know. Um, sometimes you forget or I literally like there are just more days where I don't feel musical or I'm not open to it or you're distracted, you're stressed, whatever. Um, so it's magical to me as well, but even cooler when someone else sees it's magical because they have to sit and listen or have chosen so I don't have to. They've chosen to, you know, get a ticket and make plans for the night. And they're like spending their precious time with you in this super what I think is such an intimate, um, you know, opportunity to have this conversation like it's the conversation through song to connect. Like that's I just. But in any case, I also like, I think witchcraft as well. I think that I'm yeah, definitely should be burned at the stake. Um.

Rudie: [00:38:09] So what, what I always think is incredible is that you write a song or you, I mean you artists generally write a song about a thing, a set of circumstances, an environment, a condition, a place, whatever it is that stimulates you to do the thing in the first place. Then you put it on a record, Spotify, play it live, whatever it is, and it's in a medium. I then consume that I'm not really concerned with majority of the time why it is what it is, who it's about. When it's about that you've written that it becomes my thing. Then because I heard that the first time that I drove to the beach with my new girlfriend, I heard that when I was running in the woods and I saw a deer. Whatever the thing is. The thing is. The thing is it then becomes my thing. Then. Whereas you paint a painting and it's a lady with a blue hat, everybody looks at it and goes, That's a really good painting of a lady with a blue hat. Yeah, yeah. And you might think lady with a blue hat looks like she knows something. Your, your power might look at that and going, Well I don't see the lady with the blue hat looking like she. But it's still a lady with a blue hat when you make a piece of music because there's there's a there's no visualization to it.

Rudie: [00:39:31] It's an aural thing. It allows your mind to go to wherever it is that you heard it at a time and you know yourself. Even the shittiest crappiest, most rubbish of songs, whatever it is you think to yourself, you can remember it because you were where you were when you saw it doing the thing that you were doing. And and then it's a straightaway trigger. It's the you can smell the hot dogs on the barbecue or the whatever it is. No other medium does that, you know, other, other, other art forms. Can move you the same, but they can't give you that that memory trigger thing. And and you don't get to choose. You don't get to choose. So I hear, um, you know, Toto Africa or something. And it reminds me of a particular time and a particular setting and a particular set of circumstances. And I really like the song very much, I have to confess, but I don't get to choose that. That becomes a trigger every time I hear it for the thing I was doing at the time that now reminds me of what I was doing at that moment.

Christina: [00:40:35] Yeah, it's true. I was listening to I was I chatted with a friend of mine, Matty. His artist name is Graven. He's from the, the Ottawa Ottawa Valley. And so in to prepare, I was listening to a lot more of his music, which he's a great singer songwriter and one of his songs. I'm literally I'm doing a jog around this loop down by the beach near where I live. And we had a big hurricane this year. And and it it ripped apart the shoreline. Every couple of years it happens. And this the the shoreline here is literally like people have properties and they're like they're having to move their properties back or spend thousands of dollars on rock giant rocks to try and preserve their property, their million dollar estates. But in any case, I'm near the end of this loop run and listening to one of his songs and I see my car, but I'm I'm coming along this part where I'm literally like walking along where this, like, eight feet of land has been washed away from the storm. And in his song, he he sings the line as I'm walking by, you know this he uses this as a metaphor for like this person's, you know, shores have been just ripped apart or whatever. And regarding a relationship, anyway, it was just this magical moment. And I was about to interview him and I just had to text him right away. And, you know, it was just I was like, how the fuck did that line up? Like, Yeah.

Rudie: [00:42:11] Where does that come from? And how does that how do you have that at that moment in that space?

Christina: [00:42:15] It's just, yeah. And I mean, we say all this stuff, it's really fascinating, but I don't know if anyone's doing the research on it. I don't even care to know. I'm just like so grateful that it happens for people and that someone who. Sometimes can tap into that magic and oftentimes it's not doesn't really work out so well. I can tell you from the journals and pages I've burned, but yeah, it's it is magic when it happens. And it's magic to be in the room with a great singer songwriter. I mean, that's what I remember living in Austin and going out on my own to, to hear singer songwriters at the at the encouragement of my host father when I was an au pair. And I didn't know anything about singer songwriters, like I didn't like just somebody with their guitar, like not even a band. And I was I was hooked. Like, I was like, Oh my God, I really want I don't know if I can, but I want to try and do this thing. This is this is fucking powerful.

Rudie: [00:43:22] It's a compunction that when you're on the outside looking in. And because I often think to myself, you know, you hear a song somebody has written or a piece of music somebody has written and you think you must have just you've written that and you're gone. Hey, guys, listen to this. I've got to play this. Play them the tune. And then everybody high fives themselves in the studio and goes home for the rest of the day or the week because you go, Ain't gonna get any better than that. But that's not how it is. But to the to the person on the outside looking in. Yeah, I, um. I was very fortunate. I, I, um. I interviewed Jennie Ritter when she came over to the UK on the show, and I asked her about a particular song, and I asked her, I never, I never asked the artist to play a particular song. It's not my business, you know, if they want to play a particular thing because that's how they feel that day, then play that one, you know, whatever you're going to play. I'm grateful because, you know, I'm two foot away from you and you're playing it. Pretty much just for me. So I never ask the artist. The only time I've ever asked the artist to play anything in particular was I asked Jennie Ritter to play this particular song, which she did.

Rudie: [00:44:31] And afterwards I was asking her about it and I said, That must have been like a great moment when you wrote that and you must have just gone fucking nailed that. That's it. You know, my job here is done. High fives all around. Let's go to the pub. And she said it just was unremarkable and didn't really think I was going to. Couldn't decide whether I was going to put it on the album or not. It didn't feel that great a thing to me. And she said, and I put it on the album and now people ask for it all the time. And she said it just to me. It was just I thought it was nice and it was quite a good tune and quite like the lyrics and whatever she said. But everybody else has picked it up and run with it and I'm just going, Yeah, okay. Well it's pretty good. But didn't think it was a and to me, you hear it and you think. High fives all around. This is, you know, Hey, do you know what boys? The day is done. We're ain't gonna get any better than this. Yeah, Yeah. It's just. It's a yeah, it's a it's a it's a, like I say, witchcraft.

Christina: [00:45:28] Witchcraft. You've been involved in like starting radio shows like from the ground up programs, community radio, like organizations. And I was curious because I'm I mean, I spent a lot of time project managing, you know, like not just writing. There's one thing I like writing songs, but I also love, like, you know, putting together the music videos with the team and, and all the other shit. I basically, you know, so I'm curious about the behind the scenes of making that happen. And for, you know, you never know who's listening like because I think there's there are a lot of people who would love to run their own podcast or radio show or start something in their community. How the fuck do you do that? And who, like what are your key people that you need to have involved? I know you've been a creative director, but like what are some of the key folks?

Rudie: [00:46:20] So radio shows a simple podcasts. Things are simple. It's got and it's getting simpler all the time. We're talking now via Zoom or teams, whatever. I've got a little USB thing you can voice track from home, so I do a couple of shows. I do one for a regional station community station here in the UK. That's about it. You'll seem nothing to you, but it's about 3.5 hours northwest of where I am. I've never been there. I've never met the people. I just do the show from home. Wow. Um, but I also have done in the past, uh, syndicated shows, one in the US, one in Canada, actually briefly for a few months, and then one in Australia did that for quite a long time when I was doing the Horseshoe Lounge. So I used to do edited versions down for Australian audience and so forth. That bit's reasonably straightforward and there's lots of people you can see. And to do that, to put an FM station on the air, that's a whole other thing.

Christina: [00:47:15] Does anyone do, what's the other one? AM.

Rudie: [00:47:18] Yeah, yeah. So we well. Here in the UK, AM is being phased out and so we're losing the AM signal and it's being taken in-house by the government for military purposes.

Christina: [00:47:32] Okay.

Rudie: [00:47:33] So we have FM and we have what they call DAB digital broadcasting. So there's a digital version as well. And so you can apply for a licence and that's reasonably straightforward to do. I used to do my radio show and it was on a community station and we were taken over by a third party commercial station from. So there's a difference between community and commercial. Community is not for profit and commercial is obviously has ads and all the rest of it. Community stations also have ads here in the UK. But the idea is that, um, they tend to be sort of self-financing and there's no, there's no shareholders, there's no profit to be made.

Christina: [00:48:15] No one's getting rich.

Rudie: [00:48:15] Yeah, yeah. And um, and they tend to reflect the communities that are in. So, um, here, so we have, um, a huge Asian community in Bradford City just maybe an hour north of them here. And they'll have, you know, they'll play Bhangra and they'll play, you know, it's, and they'll have foreign language programs and so forth. Here in York, it's not, it's not really, it's not really that culturally diverse. So, um, but we tend to reflect or we, we try, we tried to reflect the local community so we would have programs that were reflective of the local community. So we, we got bought out by a commercial station. We got out of a commercial station. You just go to the set format that most commercial stations were, and gradually in a very short space of time, they got rid of all the quirky, oddball shows, mine included, and went to a commercial format because they wanted the brand, which is broadcasting. I love radio. I listen to radio all the time. I'm very lucky living here in the UK, we have the BBC, so we've got a really good. Wide range of radio. I can listen to everything from classical music to Bhangra to metal to spoken word, to politics to whatever I want to listen to all on the BBC.

Rudie: [00:49:36] So I'm very lucky. I know that that's that's not open to everybody in every country. And I'm and and you know, it's worth my £1.64 a day or whatever it costs me in my tax to have the BBC. Um, but the thing about. Liking radio and enjoying radio. Is that. It's it's a it's around me all the time. I it wakes me up in the morning and I fall asleep till at the end of the day. And television requires you to, to be engaged or indeed it stops the engagement because you you can you have to concentrate and focus on the image with radio I can type, I can wallpaper, I can run, I can eat my tea, I can whatever it is I want to do or indeed do nothing. Just lie in the dark with the lights off, listening to people telling me about the football match, soccer match, whatever it is I want to do. And I've always loved radio and the medium of radio and the people's voices and the cadence and the descriptions and all of those things. And there's no other medium like it. And radio is a sort of fading art. And my kids don't listen to radio. They listen to Spotify because they can listen to what they want to listen to when they want to listen to it. Radio doesn't have that flexibility, but what it gives you is it gives you curated content and hopefully you find the people that like the things that will inform and educate and support the things that you like so you get more flavors.

Christina: [00:51:15] Well, listen, I don't want to keep you much longer, but I do want to leave on a sort of a I want to ask you how you are like how you are. It's been a while now that we've got this new kind of, I don't know, way of living and functioning in the world. There's there's before Covid and still in Covid. And, you know, a lot of us have found new ways to try to stay healthy. It's been hard regardless of that, like, how are you doing now and what are you looking forward to? Those are two questions, really.

Rudie: [00:51:56] Okay. I am, uh, I'm okay. So good days, bad days. Same as everybody else. Cost of living here in the UK has rocketed and salaries and things have not really kept pace with that. So that's difficult. And people have become more insular and, uh, more remote. I think, um, half the people are working from home and you don't see them, so you don't. So those work based relationships are a bit of a thing of the past. Um, we've also had a bit of a double whammy here in the UK by we've um, we voted to leave the European Union, which I know this is not a political podcast, so we'll leave the politics to one side, but um, holy fuck, what were we thinking of? I mean, that's just fucking mental.

Christina: [00:52:53] Listen, I don't even watch the news that much, and I'm hearing bits of like, what? Their prime ministers now what they had one. They don't. They do, they don't. Yeah. So we.

Rudie: [00:53:03] We, we had this sort of collective agreement. Imagine if all the Canadian states decided that just one of them decided, maybe the French speaking, one decided it was going to leave Canada. We've done exactly that and we've done the leaving of the, you know, of all of the other countries thing. It's not quite states because they're sovereign bodies, but um, now we just and then we had Covid and now everything's really hard. You know, getting shit is really hard. Getting parts, getting materials, getting just buying stuff is more difficult. And that is a tax on it because you've got to import it and all of that, all of that stuff. So all of that. And so that becomes so you just, you know, you just there's a an all pervasive kind of air about everything all of the time. It's quite hard to, to to encompass and then and then so that's quite a you know that's that's wearing on your sort of general everyday demeanor. But as for looking at things, looking forward to doing, I'm really looking forward to this is a really great thing. So this will mean almost nothing to anybody that doesn't live in the UK, but I'll just be selfish for a tiny moment. So one of the really good things about Covid, really great thing is the, the UK, uh, and I'm sure Canada is too, but probably not quite as good, is a really great place and there's loads of really great stuff. And during Covid because we couldn't travel or we didn't want to travel, we discovered so many cool places all over the UK. So I've been collecting islands. That's one of the things I've been doing. So I've been going and visiting islands. You know this because you've seen.

Christina: [00:54:48] I got a postcard from you from an Island.

Rudie: [00:54:49] Yeah, we've been collecting islands. So I've been to the Outer Hebrides, so I've been to Uist and I've been to Shetland and I've been to Foula. I've been to Foula, which is 2.5 hours west of an island that's ten hours north of the mainland. So it's so far away. It's the most it's the most remote inhabited island in the UK. Wow. It's going to pop. We, we, when we went, uh, we added 10% to the population when we went there to stay for the week.

Christina: [00:55:21] Oh, my God.

Rudie: [00:55:22] So these things. So that's been a really positive thing because I've meant, it's meant I've had to stay in the UK rather than go abroad and travel, which is really great environmentally. It's good for the economy because we're putting my pounds back into my own economy and I've seen some of the most terrific places in the UK.

Christina: [00:55:41] And and Cheryl, how's Cheryl doing.

Rudie: [00:55:43] She's fine.

Christina: [00:55:44] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Say hi for me.

Rudie: [00:55:46] Will do. Yeah. Yeah.

Christina: [00:55:47] And the boys.

Rudie: [00:55:48] Gosh, yeah, yeah.

Rudie: [00:55:49] Yeah, yeah. There, there, there, there. Big, ugly units there.

Christina: [00:55:53] Big, ugly units.

Dale: [00:55:55] Yeah, yeah. Hang on a second. I'll see. I'll see if I can. I'll see if I can call one of them to get them to come upstairs.

Christina: [00:56:00] Yeah, that'd be great. They'd probably be like, Who the fuck is Christina?

Rudie: [00:56:04] Yeah. No, you won't get Frank, but you. You might get.You might get Johnny. Frank won't do anything. I'll see if I can get one of them to come upstairs.

Christina: [00:56:13] We might get Frank. Tell him I have his postcards here.

Rudie: [00:56:17] Hello. Do you want to come upstairs and say hello? Bring Johnny too.

Christina: [00:56:26] Bring the postcards.

Rudie: [00:56:27] But Frank, want to come in? The Frank wouldn't want to come in the loft, will he.

Christina: [00:56:31] Okay. Oh, he won't.

Rudie: [00:56:33] He won't. He won't come up the. I'm in a loft in the loft space.

Christina: [00:56:36] Yeah, I could tell. I could tell.

Rudie: [00:56:38] There's a there's a open ladder to get up the stairs which Frank won't come up.

Christina: [00:56:43] Oh, that makes sense. He's just being wise.

Rudie: [00:56:46] He doesn't like the open ladder thing. He, um. Yeah, he does. He's not very, uh, because he's a bit shaky on his feet, as you know. So he doesn't, he doesn't like the open ladder and climb it. And then if you get him up you can't get him down. When we were in Amsterdam, we went in a windmill and he climbed up it. And then he couldn't come down because he didn't know how to get down because he couldn't.

Christina: [00:57:07] I bet. Yeah. Hey, Johnny. Hello. How's it going? Can you hear? Oh, you can't hear me? Can you hear me?

Rudie: [00:57:17] Yeah.

Christina: [00:57:19] Hey, can you hear me now?

Johnny: [00:57:21] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Christina: [00:57:23] Oh, my God. What did you call your son earlier? A big, ugly unit. He is not a big, ugly unit. He's a big, handsome unit. Oh, what a jerk to me now. What a jerk your dad is. Yes. Gosh, you look great. Oh, my God. Yeah,

Rudie: [00:57:41] He's taller than me now as well.

Christina: [00:57:43] Yeah, I bet. Oh, my goodness. So, what are you up to?

Rudie: [00:57:46] That's why he's such a big, ugly unit.

Christina: [00:57:47] Like what? What's your. What do you do for fun?

Johnny: [00:57:51] Uh, sports. Like what? Rugby and football.

Christina: [00:57:57] That is so British.

Rudie: [00:57:58] Yeah.

Christina: [00:58:00] Those two things. Yeah. That's amazing. Dude, that's awesome. Good to see you.

Rudie: [00:58:06] Well, you are honored. Frank's coming upstairs.

Christina: [00:58:09] Awesome. I'm going to show him what I've got. Frank, buddy. Cheryl. Hey, Frank. Hey, Frank.

Rudie: [00:58:21] Say hi Frank.

Christina: [00:58:22] Hey, Frank. Look what I have. Do you know what I've got here, Frank? Do you know what these are?

Rudie: [00:58:25] She's been reading them out to me, Frank. All your postcards. One of which you said that she's got a weasel, bum face.

Christina: [00:58:32] Frank. They're brilliant and they make me smile and. Do you still have my postcards, Frank?

Rudie: [00:58:37] Yes, we do.

Christina: [00:58:39] Well, sometime, Frank, you should read them back to me. I don't know, but your burns are really good. Like, uh. Oh, this is a good one. Christina, my cat. My cat licks its bum, and so do you. And you know what? You're not wrong. Frank, You're not wrong. I love. I love our postcards.

Rudie: [00:59:00] Okay. Good to see you.

Christina: [00:59:01] Good to see you, too, guys.

Rudie: [00:59:03] Say bye, everybody.

Song 'I Don't Want to Say Goodbye to You': [00:59:05] Bye bye. I'll send you a postcard, Frank. Ciao.

Rudie: [00:59:09] Bye.

Song 'I Don't Want to Say Goodbye to You': [00:59:18] I don't want to say goodbye to you. I don't want to say goodbye to you.

Heartbeat Hotline: [00:59:33] Welcome to the Heartbeat Hotline. 1-902-669-4769. I'm the host of a Chat With Heart Podcast, Christina Martin and I'm so excited you called. Leave me your question suggestion for the podcast or a comment about this episode. Please be aware your message may be used on the podcast and social media. Tell me your name, where you're calling from, and it's also fine if you want to remain anonymous. Thanks for listening. Have a great fucking day.

Jeff's Voicemail: [01:00:06] Hi, Christina. It's. It's. My name is Jeff Robson calling from a show called Tell the Band to go home here in Winnipeg. I just wanted to phone you. I know it's your birthday today. I wanted to wish you a happy birthday. Telling you that I've been listening to the podcast. I love the podcast. I figure if I leave one of these messages, it's the only way I'm ever going to get on the podcast. So I'll try, you know, throw that out there. I love you. I hope you're doing well. I hope you're having a happy birthday. I love the show. I like to think I'm an inspiration for the show, really. But I'll just I'll just go on believing that you have a nice day. I love the show. Keep up what you're doing. I can't wait for the new record. Say hi to Dale. We love him too. Thanks. Bye.

Christina: [01:00:48] Speaking of incredible supporters and radio hosts and podcast hosts, that was my dear friend Jeff Robson from Winnipeg. Hey, Jeff, thanks for the birthday shout outs. I'm a bit late to responding here, but better late than never. Um, folks, if you love. Listening to radio and podcasts. Please check out Tell the band to go home. Tell the band to go home. Dot com is Jeff's website. He's always promoting great music. And he's a great guy. And Jeff, I saw that you have read How Music Works by David Byrne, a great read for anyone curious about how music works. I love that book. I was reading it. Started reading it back in 20 1514 when I was prepping for my album It. How to present it and whatnot. And I. I do reference that book quite a lot just for inspiration and. Yeah. So anyway, thanks, Jeff, for calling in. Best of luck to you. Hope to see you soon. And thank you for all the support over the years.

Christina: [01:02:02] Thanks for listening to A Chat with Heart Podcast produced and written by me, Christina Martin and co-produced and engineered by Dale Murray. Check out Dale's website DaleMurray.ca. The podcast theme song 'Talk About It' and 'I Don't Want to Say Goodbye to You' were written by me and recorded by Dale Murray. You can find my music on Bandcamp and all the places you stream music. Visit my Patreon page to become a monthly or yearly supporter of this podcast and my music endeavours. If you're new to Patreon, it's a membership platform that helps creators get paid. Sign up at patreon.com/ChristinaMartin. I would love it if you had time to share rate, leave a review and subscribe to A Chat With Heart on all the places you listen to podcasts. Wishing you, my Little Heartbeats, a great day.