A Chat with Heart - with Christina Martin
Canadian singer-songwriter Christina Martin started a podcast to hold sacred conversations with friends, family, and colleagues, gathering resources to help people navigate their own life, with expert tips and tricks on how to support a path with heart and personal growth. Authentic, playful and free from regulations, A Chat with Heart gives listeners an opportunity to call the Heartbeat Hotline, help shape future episodes and be featured on the podcast.
A Chat with Heart - with Christina Martin
Graven - Canadian Singer-Songwriter
Christina chats with GRAVEN (Matty McKechnie), an independent folk-rock singer- songwriter from Ottawa, Canada about his latest album Simple Complex, killing people with kindness, and singing and songwriting. As it turns out, Christina and Matty discover they might be the same person.
Graven is a passionate wordsmith of song who wears his heart on the sleeve of his melodies. He always has uplifting words and self-love promoting songs of support for anyone at his shows and his dedicated fan-base (who have dubbed themselves as “Graventown”). Graven always tries to create a highly accepting and inclusive community and his music has become a safe-haven for anyone and everyone who wants to be their real-self without judgement.
Listen to his podcast Graventown
Watch Simple Complex - The Movie
Got a question for Christina? Call her Heartbeat Hotline in Canada: 1-902-669-4769
Explore Christina's music, videos and tour dates at christinamartin.net
Christina: [00:00:02] (Instrumental music in background) Welcome to a chat with Hart podcast. I'm your host, Christina Martin. I'm here to help guide heartfelt conversations with new and old friends I've met from just being alive or touring my music around North America and other parts of the world. I chat with people I feel a kinship with and that I genuinely believe we can learn from. Our personal stories have great power to heal, influence and inspire. All we have to do is show up for the conversation.
Podcast theme song 'Talk About It': [00:00:30] If we just talk about it, we could shut the light, we can break a dark day. If we just talk about it, we can cut away, we can make a brighter day.
Christina: [00:00:56] Hello. Okay. Last episode, I believe I said I would talk more about my upcoming single called Little Princess. So just to let you know what I'm working up to in the coming weeks. April 7th is Bandcamp Friday, where Bandcamp donates 100% of the profits of their profits over to the artists. So that is a great day to buy merch from artists on Bandcamp. They're going to reap the full benefits. I'm launching three of my limited edition puzzles from the new album on my Bandcamp merch site on Friday, April 7th, Bandcamp Friday. So then a week later, I have a new single and music video launching Friday, April 14th. Mark your calendars. Little Princess will be available. I love this song. I'm so excited for you to hear it. I wrote this song for my brother Stephan and I. Growing up I looked up to him very much and wanted him to think I was cool. So I always shared anything creative that I did with him, you know, for feedback or his approval. My first memory of creating something involved him, and that memory was a kind of seed for this song in a way. I guess the song was like 30 Years in the making, which is kind of cool to think of the music video that we made. It blows my mind if you all don't know, I've been working on music videos for my new album with this brilliant director. He lives on Prince Edward Island. His name is Brendan Henry. So Brendan, he wrote the video treatment, filmed, directed, edited the whole thing. He really, really takes us out of this world for the little Princess music video.
Christina: [00:03:04] You'll understand what I mean when you see the video. I don't want to spoil it, so stay tuned for that on my social media pages. The song, when it's out, we'll play a bit of it for you on the podcast in the future. But I just I love everyone's parts in the band. So I'm having fun working on the launch plans for that single and my team is ready. We're putting out feelers with media folks now. It's very exciting. In other news, I haven't talked much about this to anyone, but whenever you say something like that, like I haven't I haven't told many people this, but I feel like I should come out with some major huge thing that, you know, like think of like, what's what's the thing that people say that, you know, gets people excited no matter what? Like, I'm having a baby. I'm not I'm not having a baby. I'm not, that's never going to happen. Or like, I don't know, I, we, I bought a horse. I don't know if that excites people. But anyway, um, maybe this is just exciting to me. I just want to preface what I'm about to tell you about, but it is really important to me. I want to share it because it's something that terrified me to do, but it's something that was like for years and years has been there's been this like it's sort of like a a dream and it's been itching at me. Like, I just I know that if I knew that if I didn't go for this, I would be something that I regretted no matter what the outcome.
Christina: [00:04:44] If I don't try, I will be pissed with myself. So I'm going to tell you about it. Um, so it's been a big project that has wrapped up. I received funding during the pandemic from the province of Nova Scotia to create charts for nine of my songs for symphony orchestra performances. Now, hold on. Don't get too excited. I don't have any symphony gigs yet, but what I do have are the completed charts for my band and me to play with a symphony orchestra. So I've got these digital mock ups of what these songs will sound like. I don't have the real musicians. It's all but it sounds really cool. It sounds like, okay, you get the point when you listen to these mock ups, um, so I can start reaching out for opportunities. That's my next phase. But getting to this point was huge, a huge obstacle for me, really. I didn't know where to start. So my big dream in the next 2 to 5 years is to is to find the first willing partner collaborator who will want to perform these songs with me and my band. I want to say a huge thank you to the province of Nova Scotia and Mickey Quase for the support and the funding. My friend Meaghan Smith, who who shared her experience performing with symphonies in Canada and she encouraged me to go for it, and also to the two composers who wrote and arranged the charts because there's no way in hell that I could do that. Christopher Palmer in Canada and Manuel Krass, Krass, I'm going to say in English, in Germany. They did a fantastic job. Okay. So if you all can just wish me luck, put good vibes out there. I need to, you know, keep working on it. And I'm going to be looking for contacts and reaching out to people and seeing what happens. So, um, yeah, as I said before, taking on this commitment scared the shit out of me. But I forged ahead. I practiced. I had to practice an immense amount of, like, patience and persistence just for my my end of it. The composers that I worked with were just wonderful. There were times when I thought, you know, who am I kidding? Like, I can't do this or I shouldn't do this or I'm not, you know, at a certain level. And I just had all these negative talks and I just literally had to shut that down or kind of let it, you know, say let it do its thing in my head, but not believe in that and just believe in the facts and the reality of like, Oh yeah, I actually can do this. I did find this support. I do have the support.
Christina: [00:07:45] I'm actually writing the email, the first email. You know, I'm so I'm going to continue to forge ahead and remember that I only live once and I don't want to have any regrets. Speaking of no regrets, boy, am I happy that despite many years of procrastination, I ended up launching this podcast with my best friend, Dale. My guest today brother from another mother, or maybe from the same mother. We're still sorting out the facts around that. Graven, also known as Matty McKechnie. He's an independent folk rock singer songwriter from Ottawa. He's got 15 major releases under his belt and his latest album, Simple Complex, recorded at Fang Studio in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, is fantastic. He loves touring. He promotes self-love through his songwriting and his conversations on his podcast, Graventown. He's one of the nicest humans and I'm a big fan of his songwriting and also his dedication to the craft. Oh, and he has great merch on his Bandcamp. I own one of his Graventown baseball T-shirts. I have a hunch you'll love him too. No pressure, but here's my chat with Graven.
Christina: [00:09:17] Where are you? You look like you're in a classroom or you have a vision board next to you.
Graven: [00:09:22] This is my, this is my room. Like, this is my bedroom. So I have a lot of my daughter's art and stuff on the wall. And then I do have some sticky notes for, uh, you know, motivational quotes and stuff like that.
Christina: [00:09:37] Oh. Would you care to share one with us? Sure. Just pick any one. It can be. It can be super cliche. And by the way, I wish we would. I do this all the time, but I hate following things with it's such a cliche. Like, if something works, it works. Like, let's just keep using it. And, uh,
Graven: [00:09:55] Yeah, people.Always knock things because it's a cliche. It's like, well, cliches can be good because they work, right?
Christina: [00:10:00] Well, that's how they got popular in the first place. Yeah. All right. Let's let's. Let's hear words of wisdom. Not, uh, originally, perhaps from Matty. From Graven.
Graven: [00:10:13] No, some of them are from. No, a lot of them are not from me. Some of them are from just quotes I find at different places. This one, this one was from like a Southern. Pastor, though, I don't even really go to, you know, not really church or religious anymore. But this one said, keep standing no matter what. Do not give up. It doesn't matter to me any longer how long I live. What matters to me most is how I live. So I sort of think of that in terms of kindness and what you put out into the world and all that stuff.
Christina: [00:10:45] You know what I've been asking myself lately? Um, you know, at the end of my life, like, whenever that is, uh, like what, what things am I doing now that I really am, like, going to regret wasting my time doing? And oftentimes, guess what the answer is? But social media.
Graven: [00:11:06] Yeah, I know that's true.
Christina: [00:11:09] Now I say that, but you know, I also love it. I just have had to learn how to just do it in moderation or like find a way that I'm I'm happy, like and not listen to what everybody else or like I guess the industry is really pushy about you need to do this and be like doing this how? Like I just I don't care anymore. I'm just like, I'll make it fun when I feel like doing it, you know? What's your take on that?
Graven: [00:11:36] I totally agree with you. So I got kind of down the wormhole of it a couple years ago because I started like becoming more, you know, serious about music or doing it more full time during COVID, like early COVID and probably about a year into the pandemic. And I was posting like every day, sometimes twice a day on all platforms. And it was just too much, you know, it was like thinking of content and something interesting to say. And, you know, it was like the pandemic. There wasn't a lot of interesting stuff going on. So you're just like, so now it's like you, I have a happy medium where I try and do it every two, three days and it's like whenever I can, you know what I mean? There's no timer on it. It's just, um, when I, when I feel like it and when I think it will be interesting. And instead of just throwaway stuff, like something like, Oh, this happened or I was thinking a lot about this, like, I try and do more relatable stuff, like what I'm going through. I don't know if you do that to kind of share like little breakthroughs or mental valleys or mountains you've gone through and stuff.
Christina: [00:12:49] Oh, man, I'm so I'm kind of disconnected from what the hell do I do? I feel like I'm in this in-between phase where I'm like, okay, now I need to think of what do I yeah, what do I want to do? I'm in between. I'm getting ready for a new album launch. Like what's going to, I guess, satisfy the need in me to want to stay healthy and have fun with this. Yes. And just let it matter like so I'm sort of in that check. That check, check in phase. I don't remember what I've done so much. I've tried so many things to just try and figure out what is me like, what feels authentic, what? Um. What am I doing just because I think I should be and I'm seeing other people do it? Um.
Graven: [00:13:35] Yeah. Do you find it really, like, does it. Does it make you more depressed or does it make you happy when you when you post or see other people's stuff? Do you feel like, oh, I have to be like them, or do you just kind of follow your own recipe? And do you like it?
Christina: [00:13:53] It doesn't make me depressed when I post. I think what I, I get down about is, is when I recognize that I am not writing music, I'm not creating, I'm not, you know, I'm just like spreading myself too thin. I really the older I get, the more I believe in like try to do one project at a time. Like I'm juggling things right now leading up to a new album. You know how that is. Yeah. And so anyway, I do love posting. I just need to, you know, but I've also, I've also absolutely fallen into, into that kind of trap of like seeing other people posting things that are really exciting. And it makes me feel bad that I'm not doing something right now, especially in the last, you know, since the pandemic, we haven't been touring and that touring was always something that really fills me up. As, you know, you're, you're like you're you're connecting with people in this magical way. And it's, it's, it's a real privilege to be on the road. And and that really stopped for me and now it hopefully getting back to that but I'm seeing I'm seeing other people maybe touring and what I do when I start to feel like a sense of jealousy is I, I start to think I'm so happy for my friend or that person. How cool is that? And also I ask myself, is that something I really want to be doing right now? You know, it sort of brings me back to like, remember what your path is and don't get caught up in what everybody else is doing. And it's also okay to have these really long periods of time where you are not, you know, super busy and totally you you need seasons for writing and filling yourself up and living life. And then you need seasons for doing the music business stuff and you need seasons for touring and all that stuff.
Graven: [00:16:03] You do.
Christina: [00:16:03] You know what I'm saying?
Graven: [00:16:04] Yeah, you can't. It's true. I think that's what, um. I'm sure you've seen this too. Like a lot of my friends who are talented and your friends too, who are talented like this, if you can call it an industry. I don't even really like calling music an industry because the industry is like, you know, usually like steel or lumber or something. They provide. They provide people with jobs and benefits and all these things, right? But music doesn't do that. But I think that, um, yeah, we see these friends that, you know, and I know who just run themselves ragged, right? It's like that's been, that's been like drilled into them. It's like tour, tour, tour, play, play, play. And then get an album out somewhere every couple of years, Right. Or something. And, you know, and then when you do that and these guys have been on the road, as you and I know, like doing 200 shows a year or something, which is insane or 250 and then you're just burnt like you're coming into record and you can't, you know, like collect your thoughts or your feelings on the songs and you can't be present in the songs because you're just, you know, when you're like a road warrior, you're just in that zone of like, go, go, go. I got to get to the next thing. And and it really wears people down, I think, mentally too. And I've had some friends really suffer from that as well. It's kind of a I don't know if you felt that way, but I feel that way. I'm always like, Oh, I'm not doing enough because I kind of try and do you know, this next year? Hopefully, like hopefully I'm going to try and do like a hundred shows or something like that if I can. But to me that's like a lot.
Christina: [00:17:41] I think that's a lot too.
Graven: [00:17:43] Right? So I don't know. But it's what do you think about that? Like, how do you get how do you avoid the hamster wheel of the music world telling you you need to do more and more and more all the time?
Christina: [00:17:54] Well, I guess I, I kind of shut it off like I. I mean, I try to I'm, again, I'm not immune to those feelings of I'm not doing enough. Like, I've been sitting on a new album, you know, like, I think most most people don't care when I put stuff out. No one's going like, what the hell is the matter with Maddie or Christina? Like, I'm waiting. Like, I know, like, as if there's not enough music in the world to check out. I've gone my own way many times. I've made my own decisions. I'm. I think. I think you know it.
Graven: [00:18:30] Yeah and I love your stuff for that. It's awesome. Thank you. Definitely. Yeah. You're like a pioneer and you just do it your own way and fundraise and stuff. Like, that's so important, you know? Like, I don't know.
Christina: [00:18:42] I wish I didn't have to. I mean, the reality for me is like, I make money at this, but I don't always make enough. I spend a lot because I believe in quality collaborations. I believe in paying people, so that they could...
Graven: [00:18:59] The other thing too, is not sorry not to cut you off, be the industry thing. It's like music. Being a musician is so expensive, like the stuff that we use to make good albums, to make good songs like Mikes, all those, you know, really good equipment, really good guitars, pianos, whatever. That stuff isn't cheap. It's super expensive. So we're in this industry where we don't always get paid that great and we use like really expensive equipment. If you want to do it right, you know, you have to use expensive stuff. And it's like this weird, you know, unbalanced scale sometimes. Sorry, I'm sounding really negative, but I'm not.
Christina: [00:19:36] No, you're, I think you're not at all. I think this is the stuff that I think you can say these things and it's not a negative. It's just an honest like, hey, this is the reality. I want to know what you do when you burn out or you're looking for creative inspiration. What are the things you turn to in your life? Like for me, it's I start listening to good songwriters like I was listening to your to your album, which we're going to talk more about, Simple, complex. And I was like, This makes me want to write songs again. So what do you do? Who do you turn to? What do you turn to? To recharge, refuel?
Graven: [00:20:17] And that's a good question. I'm still I think I'm still figuring that out, like just being a couple years into really doing it full time. But I think that the main main thing for me is always nature. Like it has to be like I just have to go out and be in the woods and around this area where my folks live. Like there's tons of green space like nearby, which is a blessing for sure. So lots of woods, like lots of, you know, pines and deciduous and coniferous and all that stuff that I'm not a pro at labeling.
Christina: [00:20:57] You just said, you just said two words that I've read repeatedly and consistently forget. So I think that's very impressive.
Graven: [00:21:05] I think coniferous trees have cones, right? So I think those are like pine trees.
Christina: [00:21:10] That is a great way to remember that word.
Graven: [00:21:11] Okay. I think so. Anyways, it could be wrong, but I think that yeah, for me it's nature like that really just going for a walk and getting away from everything and being like, okay, what do I want to do? Because I think sometimes I'm very I don't know if you're this way, but like there are some people that I trust and value and I'll ask their opinions and stuff, but then sometimes I like widen the the circle and I'll just let in a lot of ideas. Like too many at some point, at different points in my life, I felt like this is a big theme it comes back to. Like when there's too many voices then you need to like, shut them out for a bit.
Christina: [00:21:53] I completely agree.
Graven: [00:21:55] Yeah, totally. Like so many artists, I think struggle with that. And there's people like I think about new musicians like these friends, these friends of friends I know who sort of became big. I won't say who they were, but it was like so evident that they were just sort of getting poked and prodded, you know, by all these different people telling me, oh, you should be more like this, you should be more country, you should be more that way, should be more rock and wear more jean jackets and take photos of yourself in front of big stacks of records. And I think like that is, um, that stuff is tough and it's really tough to navigate because when you're coming up and you're younger, you're kind of like, Oh, we're impressionable. And I still, you know, I still am too. But I think getting older and growing a bit older and now having a daughter, it's like that's sort of my main priority is making sure that she's good and she's happy and taken care of. And then I'm like, okay. What can I do for this music or this album upcoming. And I just sort of think about what's going to be fun for me and what am I going to like from the experience and if nobody else likes it, well, F it. At least I'm going to enjoy it, right? You can swear on this podcast?
Christina: [00:23:09] Oh, yeah, absolutely. We encourage it. We were talking about earlier, it triggered this thought about too many voices, too many voices in the room. This can happen, obviously in the studio. It can happen when you're doing your marketing, getting ready for marketing campaigns, when you're making a music video. I mean, have you had that experience where you're like, I do this a lot. I talk to myself and I say, Christina, put on your big girl panties and make the fucking decision. You are not a spring chick. You've been here before. You know what to do. Stop. Like, stop. Stop thinking that you can't make a great decision and stop worrying about whether or not you might fail at this. Because as we all know, mistakes are opportunities for growth. And I mean, so like. But do you do you feel like you trust yourself or you struggle with that sometimes?
Graven: [00:24:03] Yeah, I do. I mean, I think I am... So I've done some therapy over the last couple of years, more specifically in the last year. And I like I'm a big time people pleaser, like that's what I've grown up doing. And so it's like I want everyone around me, like especially in Graven world, like people who follow me or whatever, I want them to be happy. Oh, no, this person doesn't like, Oh, no, you know, they don't don't like something and like, what can I do to make them like me again or whatever? I struggle with that for sure. So but as I'm getting older and have done some self work, I care less about it. And I just kind of. Sort of plow ahead and do the things that I want to do. Like, you know, like recording the last album that Joel Plaskett's studio was like a thing. I was like, Man, I really want to go and do it, But forever I'd be like, No, you know, I shouldn't or I'm not, you know, there yet or whatever, right? All these voices in your head. But then I think once you step out and make yourself do something that seems almost bigger than you or like too hard to do, you learn so much from it. And you just said something like this earlier, You nailed it with like mistakes are opportunities, I think you said for growth.
Christina: [00:25:27] Yeah. Total cliche. Total cliche, right?
Graven: [00:25:30] Yeah, big time. But I think that it's true. And like I think about this all the time too, is like, you know, so many people are so handcuffed by failure, like they're so worried about failing. And luckily, as I've become older and gone down this road and done it, I'm not like, I don't care really about failing or even what is defined as a failure. Because guess what? If you fail at something, you're still alive and you get to try again and do something else or whatever. So it's like I just look at it all as learning, you know, like even going to shows now, like friends had tickets to. Death from above recently, and I'm not even a huge fan of that genre or that style. But I was like, you know, I'm going to go. And I just learned so much being there. And I look at every show as that now. Maybe the pandemic shifted my thinking about that, but it's like every show I go to, whether it's metal or rap or whatever, not saying I go to shows like that, but I just look at it all as learning, you know, it's like all education. And so if you fail, you try something, it doesn't really work out. So what?
Christina: [00:26:40] Yeah, Fuck it. You tried.
Graven: [00:26:42] Try again.
Graven: [00:26:42] I mean, that's when I think the happy, spontaneous moments in your life can happen when you. Yeah, I'm not saying I say no to a lot of things. I like my quiet life and then I'll go out and be busy and. But I, you know, I say no because I I like to protect the sacred time and space that I need, that I now know that I need. But I one thing I miss about living in the city is, is being able to take an hour or an hour and a half, two hours and go out to see something new and different. And, you know, if I were to do that now costs me so much money because of the distance and the overnight and the, you know, the cost of it all. Um, but.
Graven: [00:27:27] Just how far are you from the nearest city?
Christina: [00:27:30] Well, we're an hour away from Moncton, New Brunswick, and two hours from Halifax and one hour from Truro. Um, but, you know, that's those, so you're looking at a minimum of an hour and 20 minutes, maybe driving one way, then back and.
Graven: [00:27:47] Are there any, are there any hotspots in Truro? Like, do musicians come and play in Truro?Sometimes.
Christina: [00:27:52] There's the cultural center there and then there's I think the Nook and Cranny would be a place that if you wanted to play Truro, that would be cool.
Christina: [00:28:03] Okay. I have to ask you this because I'm sorry I missed it in any of the live streams I caught, but where does Graven come from?
Graven: [00:28:11] Oh, wow. That's a good question. Well, it was like.
Christina: [00:28:14] What do you mean? It's a good there's no one ever asked you this. Do people just?
Graven: [00:28:17] It's actually a good question. Like people I don't think people ask about your name much because they're sort of like, oh, it's just well, lots of people assume my name is Graven. So they'll be like, Hey, Graven, good to meet you. And that's fine. Like, it's whatever. Yeah. Um, it's like, uh, when I was at Guelph going to school there, I was walking this thing called the cow path. It's this long path where cows actually used to walk from the, um, there's a big agricultural program at Guelph, so they would, I don't think they walk it anymore, but they would at one point sort of walk this long trail to get back to the school. So I was walking on the cow path and I was like, Oh, graven. And I was just thinking about that word because I grew up in the church, so I grew up Christian and anything that was graven like a graven image was like a statue or something like an idol or a model hand carved by human. So it was something that would like, like there was like a verse that said, God will have no graven images before him or something. But anyways, I was like, Oh, I don't like that. I don't want that idea. But I was thinking about the word and I was like, Oh, graven. It's like if you take the word gravity and then also the word heaven and cut them in half, then you get that word. And I was like, I sort of like that. Because as humans, we're sort of like stuck in one world, right? Like with gravity keeping us down. But you're always thinking about, you know, the next life or whatever you believe in. So yeah, I think that's sort of where it came from and it stuck. But the funny thing is, there are so many, I'm going to say at least 8 or 9, um, death metal bands called Graven that are all from like Denmark and overseas. So when people looked at my music, not, not, not so much Now when I was first starting out, like years and years ago, people would pull up the stuff before I would do a radio spot and they'd be like, Graven, huh? Your music doesn't sound like at all what I picture. So it was sort of a funny thing. So I just kept it, you know? And yeah, it's like, um, it's like a moniker, a stage name or something. I just sort of like that. I like the little bit of the separation, so it's fun.
Christina: [00:30:37] That's so deep. Like, that's so much more deep than I ever thought that you would answer. I maybe. Maybe you were, it was a nickname from high school or.
Graven: [00:30:47] Oh, I know. It's so funny. I did. I did work at a camp. I worked at a camp for a long time and my camp name was Gavin. So it's sort of, kind of blended with that? Yeah, like at camp people have nicknames.
Christina: [00:31:00] Okay.
Graven: [00:31:01] At camps, they. You would have nicknames so that kids, I guess, wouldn't get to know your real name for safety purposes. I don't know, back in the day, but.
Christina: [00:31:10] It's, back in the day when no one had the internet and no way of contacting you other than pen palship. And yeah, it's really it's quite interesting.
Graven: [00:31:20] You would you would find out, kids would find out your names if you like them or whatever. But there was like, you know, the one kid where you're like, I'm glad that kid doesn't know my name because they hate my guts or something. Whatever. I don't know why.
Christina: [00:31:33] When I went to university, I stopped using my name, my full name, Christina, and just introduced myself as Chris. So there's like a a handful of my friends now who, and it sort of I mean, it really takes me back. Um, but I, I forget about that time. But those friends will call me Chris and I'll be like, why are they calling? Oh, right. Because that, I refuse to let people know that my name was Christina. You know, to this day, like, I don't feel like a Christina. And it's a weird name for me to say. Like, when I say it, I'm like, this a hard word to speak? Christina It's like, it's not very fucking, uh.
Graven: [00:32:14] It's unique. When you say Christina Martin, like, everyone knows it's you, so it's your own. It's like your own tag. So that's, that's cool.
Christina: [00:32:23] That's very kind of, when you say everyone, do you mean like the voices, the people in your head or like, the world, right? Yeah.
Graven: [00:32:34] No, no.
Christina: [00:32:34] People will know my name.
Graven: [00:32:36] Well, I was talking about you at, um, like, Joel's studio when I was out there, and. Yeah, everyone has nice things to say about you and your Tunes and stuff. So.
Christina: [00:32:45] Okay, let's jump into Simple Complex. Your most recent release, which you you Okay, you recorded at Fang Studio in Dartmouth and, uh, mixed by Joel Plaskett, produced by Charles Austin and you. Okay, so all of this is first of all, I listened to the record and I love it. And I'm going to we're going to chat about some of the lyrics of your songs in a bit, but sure. Um, okay. So I'm so excited because I love Fang Studio. My album It'll be Alright -we recorded the bed tracks there.
Graven: [00:33:15] Oh, cool.
Christina: [00:33:15] Thomas was engineering Thomas and Alex engineers. I loved working with them. Um, what a great studio. And Charles Austin. He was part of my first memory. Actually, we were at his studio when I met Dale Murray.
Graven: [00:33:33] Oh, yeah. Okay. He was mentioning that. Yeah.
Christina: [00:33:35] And I've babysat his kids. And what a talent. I saw in the documentary film that you edited about your time recording Simple Complex, I saw Jeff Gay, who I'm a huge fan of. Yeah, just the best. Kev Corbett. Oh, my God. Obviously, Joel Plaskett was there mixing. Um, tell my little Heartbeat Listeners about your decision to go there, work with Charles and Joel.
Graven: [00:34:08] Oh, man. Well, that was. It was a it was scary at first. Sort of like because you think, oh, it's this really got to be good, right? But you, you put that into your head and sort of build it up. Build it up. And also, I'd never done a Kickstarter fundraiser for an album before ever, but I was like, Well, I'm going to have to go to Dartmouth. Stay there. Right from Ottawa. And and it was like just a big deal. There was all these things into it. And also, Charles Austin, for the record, was the first person I recorded with in Halifax when I first started Graven, and I was like, Oh, I think I had one basement thing that I did at my parents. And then in 2000 or 2001, I started emailing him because I saw this much music documentary about how he started his own studio. And that was a big Super Friends fan. And I was like, Oh, he seems like a nice guy. And he totally was. He just, you know, didn't know me at all. Just started talking to me about recording techniques and stuff. And then I was like, I should just come out there and record some stuff. And he was like, Yeah, you should. But it's a long way. I don't know. So Charles was like a huge inspiration to me because when I recorded that first record, like 2001, I was like, you know, really green. I was 25, and he was like, What are you going to do with these songs? And truthfully, this isn't like trying to toot my own horn. I think we did about 14 songs in two days and we both just played all the instruments, like I played most of it. And he added in some stuff, but it was just so fun. And then.
Christina: [00:35:45] That's incredible.
Graven: [00:35:46] Yeah, it was so fun. And he goes, What are you going to do with all these songs, man? And I was like, You know, I'm just going to put them up on the Internet. I don't know, do something, whatever. I was like, I'm not really into touring or playing. And he was like, I think you should. You need to tour. You need to play these songs live. You should get a band together and do it.
Christina: [00:36:04] You and I were working on our first albums in 2001 in totally different cities. No way. And similar experience. It's interesting because I had no idea what I was going to do with these songs, but it was my producer at the time, Darwin Smith, who was he was feeding me into like, You should put a band together, you should do this, You should. Oh, that's cool. And you know, I mean, really had no idea, but I, I didn't know that we were on the same. That's so funny. At the same really place. You know, at the same time. Really?
Graven: [00:36:39] That's hilarious. Well, I think, I think to make that story shorter, I was just going to say. So we're recording for the first time with Charles 20 years ago and then doing another album with him 20 years later. Right. Was really like, special for me.
Christina: [00:36:56] That is so special.
Graven: [00:36:58] Because I was like, Oh, this is great. And I talked to him about it. I was like, Do you want to produce it and be involved? And we can produce it kind of together. And he was like, Oh, I don't know. But he's like. Yeah, he's always up for, you know, he's like, Yeah, he works with Joel a lot at that studio. And he was like, Oh, I think recording on your stuff would be fun. And I'd sent some really basic scratches to him and Joel and Thomas and Kev Corbett, and they just, you know, came up with these wicked ideas for how the songs should sound. Oh, and Jordan Murphy was the drummer who is from Walrus.
Christina: [00:37:37] Oh, is that the guy that was sitting on the couch next to you in the documentary? Yeah. Okay. Okay.
Graven: [00:37:42] Unbelievable drummer.Like we got, he got those eight songs down and recorded just with me on acoustic and him, you know, playing the drum parts that he'd figured out that these songs didn't have any drums on the scratches. It was just me playing acoustic and he nailed them completely and like a day and a half.
Christina: [00:38:05] That's amazing.Yeah, I love the drums, by the way. The drums, the treatments of everything. Your vocals, yeah, everyone did a fantastic job.
Graven: [00:38:15] They really did. And Kev Corbett, you know, shout out to him. He was just he came in with his strong ideas of like, I think this, this should have some more like distortion and stuff and here and then he, he brought like this drum. I don't think we ended up using it. It was from like the 1800s or something like this hand drum thing. And he just came in with such ideas, right? He was just like, let's go. And it was it was awesome. And Charles was just like that the whole time, like running around in his element. And he's like, I think this part should have a, you know, some weird echoey thing going on. And he's like, okay, let's set it up, you know? And he just get a mic and like, do it himself and just like little amp and just, you know how Charles is.
Christina: [00:38:58] I saw the champ. The Fender champ. I think it was a Fender Champ. Um, it's, it's one of my favorite things is, is working with musicians like, like Kev Corbett that they come in and and Charles Austin too. Like, I think you refer to it as sonic sonic layering and funny. But in my album credits for this new album, I call it Sonic Delights.
Graven: [00:39:21] Oh, funny.
Christina: [00:39:21] They come in with a, a plethora plethora. This is my, by the way..
Graven: [00:39:26] I use that word too. May, We're like similar. I think we're pretty similar people.This is really weird. We're on this similar trajectory. It's awesome.
Christina: [00:39:33] I think you should do the ancestry.com DNA test and maybe we'll be related.
Graven: [00:39:39] Yeah, it could be brother and sister. It feels like that.
Christina: [00:39:41] Um, isn't it cool to meet new brothers and sisters?
Graven: [00:39:45] Like, I know this is really cool. Yeah, I'm loving it.
Christina: [00:39:47] So. Okay, so because I have, like. I know. I have. I know I have. I know I have strengths and I bring things obviously to, to, you know. But I also know where I just don't have any place or room like, um, and I really love collaborating with musicians. They're always, they're always better than me, always like, that's kind of a rule for me. And people that are not afraid to like, um, just any, like, feel free to say or whatever you think suggests like I know that we have, we throw titles of production on 1 or 2 people for a record or a single. But um, to me, it's important that I may not, I may not agree. I might not use everything. Like you said, you didn't use the 18th century drum Kev brought in, but you never know. And. And that's great to get that stuff down and try stuff. How do you know if you don't try? Like.
Graven: [00:40:51] It's exactly right? No, it's true. I think. I think you have to just throw, you know, to use that dumb expression, but throw shit at the wall and see what sticks. Because that's sort of I think in making this record too, was like one week I knew I only had a week and to come down there and do it and if it didn't get done, well, it's just going to get done. Like maybe I would have to go back at some point. But it was like the timeline of doing it this way I think is something I'm going to try and take forward in more records because it's like it keeps it all sort of fresh, it keeps it together and then you don't have the like, Oh yeah, four months later I've got to go back and do vocals. Oh yeah. Three weeks later you're going to go back and do some acoustic. What was the song that I, what? You know?
Christina: [00:41:38] You know, this is my life for this current record. But I agree with you. I was really impressed with the timeline. And I know, I know I've got friends who have made albums over weekends. That's never been my experience. But but it's really cool to see it. And and I will point out, I will point listeners to, um, to watch the documentary. It's always really cool to see..
Graven: [00:42:01] It's on YouTube yeah.
Christina: [00:42:02] ..the artist editing it themselves because then I feel like it's, um, you know, I think, I think often we're afraid to do that ourselves. Like we think, oh, it's not going to be pro or slick enough and all I from a fan's perspective, all I care about is that I'm getting what's in your head and heart. I don't care about the quality at all. So and I but I do want to talk about, you know, on that topic of trying things, throwing things at the wall. There's a moment in the documentary where you talk about the experience of recording vocals and imposter syndrome. And it's just it's so funny because, you know, we've been doing this for a while now, and yet these things still come up. Maybe it's a maybe it's a result of, I don't know, like we see the people that we're working with and we think, you know, that they're going to be judging us or whatnot. Yeah. Or something like that. But, um, tell us more about that. I just want it so interesting. And a lot of people think like we have all our shit together and we are confident and because that's usually what they're seeing, right? Like, that's what they're hearing, this beautiful piece of art, you know? Oh, man, the torture. I actually, in my liner notes for the new album I mentioned that just I mentioned that that this process has been so freeing and yet torturesome.
Graven: [00:43:36] Like, by the way. I'm so excited for your new record because I really love that the video had the like octopus or the sea creature outside of the windows.
Christina: [00:43:45] Oh, stay with me.
Graven: [00:43:46] Yeah, yeah. Stay with me is when I listen to for like quite a few weeks when that came out really, really hit me, man. I wanted to answer that question earlier too, about being in the studio there. And then it was like all that stuff was done, the layers were done and everything's done and it's like the vocals, you know, you have, I think, a day and a half or two days to to do those. And it was like, no, I think I did. I did all the vocals for eight songs in about. It was like six hours or something like over two days.
Christina: [00:44:18] Dude that blows my mind.
Graven: [00:44:20] But here's the thing, though. The whole time you're inside your head just going like. Oh, this is terrible. Like, you know. Oh, my God. And this is the thing is that all comes down to that. If you're our kind of music, you know, the lyrics are so much the thing and melodies and like everything else going on in the background, it's great. You know, it sounds awesome, but the the lyrics and the vocals really need to. Kind of hammer it home and bring the truth of the song to light, I guess. And so, yeah, just it's the weirdest thing because everything else is done. Your friends aren't really there. You're alone in the vocal booth right by yourself. So if you have fears or insecurities or worries, they're just going to become amplified. But then it's just like anything. You get to a certain point and you're like, well, fuck it. I don't know. It's not that bad. And I think it'll be okay. And then once you start hearing stuff back, you're like, okay, Oh yeah, all right. It is good. But it's, it's weird. Like sometimes your voice is sort of weird and tenured inside your own head, right? And it doesn't sound the way you think it will when it's on tape or on digital or whatever, how it comes out. So I think it's just important for people to sing their song, sing their truth, and yeah, you it is it's like a total psychological journey when you're inside that vocal booth and you're like, okay, vocals, the vocals. I know, you know, it's this thing that's coming. It's like this train that's like at the station. And then you get to it. And it's also the words, right? You're looking over your words and you're you're singing them and you're like, Oh, my God, is this. Does this even fucking mean anything? You know, what does this even mean? Because you've read it so many times.
Christina: [00:46:13] It's a workshop time for me. Is it a workshop time for you?
Graven: [00:46:17] I'm usually kind of. I have a solid idea. I might change a word or two if it's slipping or it doesn't, you know, flow or something. I'll be like, Oh. And that's when I'll ask, you know, like Alex was the one engineering when I was doing the vocals and I was like, Oh, would you change? I think this might sound better here, like the instead of whatever or something. And because it flows a bit and he's like, Yeah, sure. Most of the time, you know, they, they're not going to intervene and be like, take that out. But I will say to when someone who helped me with that was, um, Jim Bryson when I recorded with him two years ago, two and a bit years ago was like, he was really good at just being like, you know, I think you should just maybe take this part out or like this. 20 seconds of the song doesn't even need to be there. And that was a real first time for me where someone was like, You know, as an artist, sometimes your songs are so precious and they're like your babies and you're like, Oh, I made it this way. It's so special. And then someone comes in, but then you hear their ideas, just like, as you're saying, people who collaborate with you and would hear it back. And I'm like, Oh my God, he's right.
Christina: [00:47:30] Um, you mentioned your, you talk about this in the doc. I thought it was really great and sort of the part of our lives that we don't really share too often, but, um, you know, the beautiful and sad like homecoming, which could be after returning home from recording an album or returning home from a really long ass tour. I mean, talk about what the, you know, the the beauty, the sadness. Like, what's that? What's that about for you?
Graven: [00:48:02] Oh, man, I think I'm still figuring that out. But it's I think the music is, you know too, like, there's just so much buildup to what we do. Like, there's so much anticipation. It's like you have an album. It's like, anticipate, anticipate and tell people about it, tell people about it. Like really build it up. And then, yeah, this thing. That's how I felt about Simple, Complex, this thing that was so built up for many, many months and Kickstarter and all this work and getting all these musicians to be in the same room for a week, you know, and engineers and Joel to mix it.
Christina: [00:48:35] During COVID.
Graven: [00:48:36] And during COVID. And then it was just and then it's just done. Right and it's just over. And you're like, Oh, yeah, I don't know. But that's just life, right? You nailed it when you said touring too. Like, I just went on a four day tour for the first time in a long time in September. It's like you build it up, you build it up, and then it's just. Done. So I think that's what we have to deal with sometimes as musicians is like the thing. It's like being a part of the circus, being a part of this fun thing and then just done.And coming back to whatever your normality is. And I'm trying to, uh, to, to deal with that a little bit better and just, yeah, use my time where I'm not touring, where I'm not recording, better. I'm still, admittedly learning how to do that. It's, it's hard sometimes. You know.
Christina: [00:49:27] But I feel you man, like I, I struggle with that with that as well. I think as someone who has just lots going, lots of ideas and is sensitive, and like, is routine scheduling, does that work for you? Or..
Graven: [00:49:43] During Pandemic, one thing that kept me focused, especially during the early lockdown days, was doing like once a week, every week I did the Instagram live stream and that was so fun. And then it turned into, you know, there were a lot of people watching at different points and, um. You know, Strombo a few times like shared it and was so nice. And he had me on his live stream to chat about it and stuff and like, you know. But that was, I stopped doing it just because I feel like I was on screen so much, you know, as we all were probably during the pandemic. And so but I think that does it gives like some structure to the week when I'm not touring and playing and that I should maybe start to do it again just for the heck of it and kind of build around that and have different stuff I do on different days. Like I am getting better at that. I have planners and I'm trying to like, you know, figure that out. But I also have a six year old daughter. So it depends on when I have her, like I have her certain days and then I have her on like weekends. And so it's just sort of using the time when I don't have it because I don't want to be doing a lot of that shit when I have her. Like I want to be with her and she's at an age where it's just important to be, you know, present all that stuff. So yeah, I'm getting better at that. And you're right, like flexibility within routine is something that I'm still kind of learning for sure.
Christina: [00:51:16] That's great. Okay, let's talk about the songs on Simple Complex, because that's the most recent obsession that I've had. Okay, Greener grasses. I'm running listening to this and you sing. I'm always I am always somewhere else. So my question is, are you here with me now?
Graven: [00:51:37] Yeah, yeah, yeah. But oh, well, like, sometimes. I mean. I'm like that all the time. Like I can be on stage. I don't know if you're like this, but I'll just be singing like a lyric and like, things are. It's a nice show and I'm really like, locked in and present, and then all of a sudden I'm just like, somewhere else. That's also very odd when that happens, right? Like you, you can be fully doing something and performing and, you're like in this moment where you're focused and pretty intense and into it, and then all of a sudden you're just like, oh yeah, that's that show I wanted to watch on Wednesday or something. Like just, you know, a thought will come up and you're kind of somewhere else and you're like, Oh yeah, yeah, I'm doing this thing. But it doesn't take away from it. No one would know. It's just that that's how my mind is sometimes, for sure. But, but yeah, I am. One on one conversation though. I'm always pretty focused and like in the Zone. Are you an introvert or introvert, extrovert or a mix or.
Christina: [00:52:40] I suppose I'm an introvert extrovert. I probably need more time alone than I do. Like if I know on tour, think about a tour. De The time like the soundcheck when you're around the promoter and maybe some other people, and then after the show where you're at the merch table and you're really full on with people and sometimes friends. So that's, that's I love that. But it is, it's very exhausting. But the rest of the day, at least when I'm touring with just Dale and I because we are both totally cool with, I mean, we, we have our millions of chats, but we, we're pretty quiet and we don't even listen, listen to podcasts. We don't listen to a lot of music because we need ear breaks to in the car. And so it's a very quiet, you know, I'm working on projects in the car and he's he loves driving. It's meditative for him. Um, but yeah, I think I'm much more of an introvert than anybody would expect. I, I don't I'm still learning recently from our friend friends, Tony and Angela. They are educating us on on kind of. Uh, just getting to know ourselves a little bit better and came to understand that Dale and I both, um, we actually don't have a huge like, we're not able to, like, generate our own energy. We get energy from like other people. So we..
Graven: [00:54:11] That's the more extrovert side, I would say. But you're probably both you're. Yeah, yeah. I'm the same way.Totally.
Christina: [00:54:16] Like, I can't I can't do as much as some people. I get really tired and that's another thing nobody knows about me. I think they think, Oh, she's got so much energy and. No. Like. And that's why I can only do so much like. And when I book a tour, I have many more days off. I'm willing to, like, pay out of pocket for days off. Um, so that, you know, for, for my health, for the benefit of the show and the audience and um, because I don't have the. I just don't have that energy. I wanted to know what you meant by you've got an algorithm for dealing with your friends.
Graven: [00:54:59] Yeah, that was a sort of a funny line that came up. I was driving for this egg company delivering eggs all across Ottawa and the Ottawa Valley, and I was just thinking about how the digital world and stuff that we live in. And it was just sort of like an AI type thing. Like thinking about how how funny that would be. Like if we do have an algorithm for dealing with, with dealing with your friends. So it was the, the joke. Like sometimes I don't sometimes I'm not great at checking my texts. I have become better. So it was sort of just about that, like thinking like, I don't actually think that, but it's sort of a funny lyric to, to have in a song, you know, just the idea of everything being sort of simple and complex at the same time. Like sometimes just friendships are, you know, like people get pissed off, like. How come I haven't heard from you? What the hell is going on? And you're like, Oh, no, I'm just busy or whatever. And it had like this rhythm to it. Algorithm Rhythm is right. Yeah, yeah.
Christina: [00:56:02] So, yeah, it worked. It was, you know, I never thought algorithm could be poetic and it just worked. So there was a lot of lines that stood out and made me go. I want to ask them about that and I want to hear what, what your interpretation of or what you meant by the simple complex beats inside of you. I mean, I get it. Yeah, but it took me a while. I think only in the maybe recent, like 5 or 6 years did I really get that.
Graven: [00:56:32] Yeah, I think. Yeah. Well, it's the simplest complex beats inside you, but yeah, same.
Christina: [00:56:39] Fuck!
Graven: [00:56:40] You got it. Don't worry about it. No, it's. You can't really hear it. It's. And it's the song is called Simple Complex, but like it's just. Yeah, I think the heart is probably the most complex thing, not just in terms of what it does medically, but in all of the stuff that feeds into it in the body. But also just like, yeah, your, your heart is in your like, you know, mental and whole body heart like, how is somebody doing? Like, how's your heart doing sort of thing. And so, yeah, I just think that's, um, it's a really sort of an album I think about self love and like learning to love yourself and how that's the most important thing you can do, I think, in life, because from there and you can really learn to love other people and learn to really be kind and like, mean it because you like yourself, you know you do. And I've worked on that and I really do like I, I do like myself. And it's taken me a while to get there.
Christina: [00:57:48] Beautiful, beautiful. Hard Times. Yeah. So. I'm going to read the line, but I'm going to tell you what it brought up for me right away. The line was the line is, was there a time that was not hard? Help me remember. Was there a day that was not dark? And, you know, I've used songwriting to help me sort through remember, come to some kind of a, I guess, even rewrite my story and figure out who I was and how I became who I am. And I think early on, my songs maybe sounded. At least came across, to maybe my mother especially as, and the stories I would tell at shows like I would talk about my my childhood and and and I think I didn't always know maybe how to I think I think at that time I was just like everything was just so fucked up. Like, that's I had carried a lot of anger towards my father. I didn't really remember the good times. And I remember my mom would say around me or to my friends, you know, she was a happy kid. We had good times and it always like triggered something. Well, it always triggered something in me because to me, that was I interpreted that as, um, nothing really happened. None of this. She made it all up. And that further made me feel so much shame and all this stuff. But I also understand completely where my mom is coming from and. And now I'm actually starting to try exercises where I. I remember there were so many good times, good things about my father, great things about my mother and my siblings. But that's what that, that that brought up for me. What were you kind of referring to, I guess, in that song for you? Is it somewhat similar or.
Graven: [00:59:51] Yeah, well, in some ways for sure. It was more a song about high school because I did not enjoy, especially the first half of high school, and I was at this really sort of rich school where it was like you were either a jock or you're nothing. And it was just a very popular, popularity based sort of school and um. Was there a day that was not dark beyond September, just like the school year? I just dreaded it, right? I hated going to school, but.
Christina: [01:00:23] So sorry.
Graven: [01:00:24] But you know what? As I got older and I went to this other school at grade 12, I switched because eventually my parents were like, This school is not good and my marks were terrible. So at grade 12, switched to the school, called Bell. And I went to Bell and it was like, Oh wow, there's more than just white people at a school. And there was this big Somalian influx that year, like to Canada and to Ottawa. And so it was just saw this great split where these people, they didn't care. They were like, Hey, be who you are. We don't care. There were jocks there, there were preps, There are all kinds of people. And I was like, Oh, this is great. So that's but also, you know, at the end of it, I think I said at the end of that song, it's like the hard times, the hard times pushed out the rhymes that got me onto the stages. So it's like the problems and the things that we go through, right? They turn into songs or art of some kind, and that's that's always pretty cool. And just to mention, too. I want to say it's not. The song's actually called Hard Time.
Christina: [01:01:28] Fuck!
Graven: [01:01:29] Because I recorded it at, no it's not your fault. Because I recorded it at Joel's studio and Joel has a song called Hard Times, right? Which was actually pretty, pretty well known. So if I'd made a song called Hard Times and recorded at Joel's studio, that would be pretty like. Hey, man, I'm just going to come to your studio and steal one of your song titles. Is that cool with you?
Christina: [01:01:49] Oh, that's so that's very conscientious of you. But I personally would say go for it because, yeah, you know,
Graven: [01:01:57] It happens all the time.
Christina: [01:01:59] Yea. Yea. Yea. Yea. Yea.
Graven: [01:02:02] So people use song. Like song titles are, there's only so many to go around right.
Christina: [01:02:07] Like, Summer of 69 if you. That would be a little, a little odd.
Graven: [01:02:15] Or if I made a song called I Am Trying to Break Your Heart. I think Wilco would be like, Oh, I think we came up with that one first.
Christina: [01:02:21] You're like, What? Yeah, What's love got to do with it? Very, very. Yeah. It's your podcast, Graventown, which I love, by the way. And I can tell I'm just having this conversation. I could, you know, you. You're such a pro. And I think it's I think it's really cool that the pandemic has allowed more people to have these long form conversations. And, um, and I think you're really great at that and you make people feel very comfortable. I felt very comfortable as a guest on your podcast, Graventown. Um, and I mean, do you think it's helping you just be more human?
Graven: [01:03:01] Yeah, for sure. I love conversations. Like I love the one on one and so I think whenever, you know, you hear about someone in their just being open. Like I think that's the thing, right?That we live for sometimes as musicians or artists. Everyone's different, but like. I love that. You know, when you really. There's like some curtains that get pulled back on somebody and then you see the inner, you're like, Oh, wow. You know, I had no idea. Or I never would have thought that or whatever. And I think it just. Helps you to maybe be more kind in the sense that, like, none of us know, like, we don't know what anyone's going through. You walk down the street and you might think someone is that you've seen every day is a dick or whatever. And and I think that I mean, I'm. I'm all about kindness and stuff, but I sometimes if there was a microphone, a live feed in my car when I drive around by myself and man. Some of the language that comes out is insane. But like, you know, in person, I think, like I always try and be friendly and kind to people because you just never know. So I think it's just important to treat everyone with respect and just to, like think like, I have no idea, you know, like this person has had a bad day or they could have had a string of bad days or bad weeks or years or whatever. And so kindness, kindness goes a long way.
Christina: [01:04:33] Kindness does go a long way. You're right. Yeah. You know, I used to think was an asshole before, um. Before we became friends. It's a Lennie Gallant.
Graven: [01:04:45] Okay. I don't know. He's a songwriter. Is he from P.E.I. or something? Yeah.
Christina: [01:04:50] Lennie, singer-songwriter from P.E.I., Yeah. Fantastic storyteller. And what an incredibly kind and generous and loving human. And I. I don't know. I don't know if it was because he's shy or, you know, but I just made that assumption for some reason. Um, and it's so funny. I don't remember how I got to first, you know, get to know him. But once we, once we first, when we did finally have a conversation and I was just like, wow, was I totally wrong? So I think I used to, you know, probably because of having of just childhood trauma, like I, I would have my guard up about most people initially, I would go in lead with like, this person is probably gonna be an asshole, so I have to protect myself. But now I'm trying to switch it where I'm like, just assume everybody is just a kind person. And, um, until they, until they prove you wrong. And even if, even if. You know, maybe they're hurting and they haven't.
Graven: [01:06:00] That's right.
Christina: [01:06:01] Um, they don't have the capacity yet to, you know, make that transformation and... Just let it, let it. Don't put, don't, don't put up with it for yourself. Don't you know. But, you know, have compassion, have as much compassion as you can muster for the most part. Um, kill them with kindness.
Graven: [01:06:22] That's right. I think one of the things, too, I've learned about anger through therapy, too, is like, it's not even, I think statistically for this, like when people have an angry episode and they explode on you.. Say they're a friend or whatever. I've had these situations. A lot of the time. About 90 or 95% of the time. Apparently, it's not even about you. The anger, they're not actually even angry at you. It's like all these other things in their life have just led up to this explosion point. Right? Like I had this guy who will remain nameless, who's a friend, but he would get drunk sometimes and then just go off about the liberal government. And it's like, Dude, I know that you're not actually mad at the Liberal government. That's not what this is about, right? But that's the thing. So people present these sort of low level problems, but really down deep there's this other stuff going on and you know, you never know, right? You never know what that is.
Christina: [01:07:29] I don't think I've ever lost it on a friend.
Graven: [01:07:32] Um. Me neither. Maybe in response. But, yeah, I've never, like really lashed out at somebody. But that's, again, related to people with anger issues.
Christina: [01:07:45] Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know what I'm bad at?
Graven: [01:07:51] What? Let's talk about all the things we suck at. Yeah.
Christina: [01:07:55] Okay, so if we're at a party. I don't remember the last party I was at, but.
Graven: [01:08:00] I'm bad at parties in general. But yeah, continue.
Christina: [01:08:03] A party or even just really almost any event I'm so bad at like goodbyes like I will just leave even if I'm very good friends with everybody there or whatever.
Graven: [01:08:13] God, we're the same person.
Christina: [01:08:14] I would leave without saying goodbye.
Graven: [01:08:16] Crazy. I do this all the time.
Christina: [01:08:19] I find. I just find it. I don't know why.
Graven: [01:08:24] I feel your pain so much.
Graven: [01:08:26] I feel it.Like right now I'm getting anxiety thinking about it.
Christina: [01:08:29] And, I mean, I don't want to say goodbye to you. I don't want to. But at some point I have to respect your time and recognize that we've been chatting for well over an hour and a half, and you probably have things you want to get to today. Um, but it's, um.
Graven: [01:08:46] You can just, you know, you can do is just hit end on your screen and say it was a technical glitch and no one will know, right? You have to say goodbye.
Christina: [01:08:52] Could do. Actually. That's a great. I used to just hang up on my friends when I was younger. Um, so why not do that on my guests for especially people who I don't know very well, just hang up on them and exactly feel like I could hang up if I could hang up on you and not feel bad. But I find it hilarious. Then, you know, we're really friends. That's right. Um, but before I hang up on you. um. Okay. gravencanada.com. Uh, my little heartbeat listeners, um, check that out. And obviously, Graventown, the podcast. Um, uh, because you're really wonderful with your guests and you have some stellar, stellar guests on there. And.
Graven: [01:09:36] Thanks Christina,
Christina: [01:09:37] Uh, I'm excited for the next time you come through, you come over to our place.
Graven: [01:09:43] I'd love that.
Christina: [01:09:44] We could have you over.
Graven: [01:09:46] I would love that so much. Yeah, we got to play. We should do something together. Like do a little. Even if it's a show in somebody's yard or something like that..
Christina: [01:09:56] I would love that. Yeah.
Graven: [01:09:57] Yeah, that'd be great.
Christina: [01:09:59] Um.
Graven: [01:10:00] Thank you so much for having me Christina. You're the best.
Song 'I Don't Want to Say Goodbye To You': [01:10:11] (Music playing in background) It's love. I don't want to say goodbye to you. Oh, I don't want to say goodbye to you.
Heartbeat Hotline: [01:10:26] Welcome to the Heartbeat Hotline. 1-902-669-4769. I'm the host of A Chat with Heart Podcast, Christina Martin and I'm so excited you called. Leave me your question ,suggestion for the podcast, or a comment about this episode. Please be aware your message may be used on the podcast and social media. Tell me your name, where you're calling from, and it's also fine if you want to remain anonymous. Thanks for listening. Have a great fucking day.
Christina: [01:11:00] Thanks for listening to A Chat with Heart podcast, produced and written by me, Christina Martin and co-produced and engineered by Dale Murray. Check out Dale's website DaleMurray.ca. The podcast theme song Talk About It and I Don't Want to Say Goodbye to You were written by me and recorded by Dale Murray. You can find my music on Bandcamp and all the places you stream music. Visit my Patreon page to become a monthly or yearly supporter of this podcast and my music endeavors. If you're new to Patreon, it's a membership platform that helps creators get paid. Sign up at patreon.com/ChristinaMartin. I would love it if you had time to share, rate, leave a review and subscribe to A Chat with Heart on all the places you listen to podcasts. Wishing you, my little heartbeats a great day.
