Estelle Thomson - Spiritual Teacher

Christina chats with the magical Estelle Thomson about some of the plethora of gifts she shares with the world - like yoga and spiritual retreats, grief work, and Tommy Tinker Forever, a 30-minute documentary about Estelle's journey with grief and love.

Estelle Thomson has her Masters in Counselling Psychology, she is a leading yoga teacher and educator in the intersecting fields of expressive arts, embodied movement and psychology. With over ten years of experience, her work explores the relationship between breath, body, emotions, imagination and play. She is also a faculty member of Quantum University, internationally recognized for offering online courses and graduate degree programs in holistic, alternative, natural, and integrative medicine. She leads numerous lectures, workshops, retreats locally and internationally. Her website, estellethomson.com is a plethora of resources from yoga to grief, retreats and conversations with other remarkable women on SHE Quest Podcast, so drop her a visit on her website.

Chapters

• 0:00 Greetings from Christina
• 0:30 Theme Song - Talk About It
• 0:56 Introduction by Christina
• 9:35 The story of Estelle's studio
• 14:48 Tommy Tinker Forever
• 24:50 Understanding through images and art
• 27:11 Dealing with hurt people
• 38:04 Coaching sessions with Estelle
• 43:02 Quote from Estelle
• 48:33 Retreats
• 52:04 Being who you are
• 56:49 What's next for Estelle?
• 1:03:36 Heartbeat Hotline 1(902)-669-4769
• 1:04:40 Podcast Credits
• 1:05:02 Support the Podcast on Patreon

Transcript

Estelle Thomson

Podcast theme song 'Talk About It': [00:00:02] (Instrumental music in the background)

Christina: [00:00:03] Welcome to a Chat with Heart Podcast. I'm your host, Christina Martin. I'm here to help guide heartfelt conversations with new and old friends I've met from just being alive or touring my music around North America and other parts of the world. I chat with people I feel a kinship with, and that I genuinely believe we can learn from. Our personal stories have great power to heal, influence and inspire. All we have to do is show up for the conversation.

Podcast theme song 'Talk About It': [00:00:30] If we just talk about it, we can shine a light, we can break a dark day. If we just talk about it, we can cut away, we can make a brighter day.

Christina: [00:00:55] Hey there. I want to start by saying, (singing) Thank you for calling my Heartbeat Hotline. It is long distance for some of you, long distance in Canada or outside of Canada, unless you have some kind of app, something that allows you to call and leave a message for free. I really have been appreciating the prank calls. I've been asking for them and they're all great. And if they don't make it to an episode, it's only because we had trouble finding a way to clip the messages to keep them a reasonable length.  
  
 But yeah, I appreciate all your messages, so keep them coming. You can ask me anything. The number to reach me is, "What is it?" It's at the end of this podcast after my chat with my guest. You'll hear the number. It's in every episode, so it's like not 1-800, not 1-900. It's like 1-902-6 something, something, grow. Anyway, stick around or listen to a previous episode at the end or fast-forward to the end. No, don't fast-forward to the end of this episode. Listen to it all. You don't want to miss it.  
  
 A couple of things I've been doing lately that have been helping me feel overall really good. I thought I would share, maybe some of you listening are in a bit of a rut and looking for some inspiration. Okay, so I've been taking care of all the annoying tasks that I've been procrastinating for like a year, just unpleasant stuff, clearing my to-do list, and that always makes me feel good and really does create this space for the things I really enjoy doing in my work and in my free time. So that's been something I've been dedicating time to, and then I feel like I have more time, which I love.  
  
 I've been starting my days earlier, so between 6:00 and 7:30. I tried the 5:00 AM thing and I could only sustain that for a couple of days, and then I just crashed. I just couldn't stay awake. And so I was like, "Okay, 6:00 seems to be when I naturally, between 6:00 and 7:00 get up, so I'll set my alarm for 6 AM and I try not to hit the snooze button. 
  
 And the other thing I've been trying over the last couple of months, I guess religiously lately is exercising first thing. Or at least exercising in the morning. I find if I wait till the end of the day, I'm more likely to be miserable or stressed during the day and then too tired to do it at night. So I'll get up, do short meditation, do maybe even just a 20-minute yoga session. There's plenty of free yoga classes online.  
  
 And then I've also been increasing my cardio workouts. For years now, I've only been doing 30 minutes, but I've been increasing it to 45 minutes. And that's been making a huge difference. Just like I feel stronger. My metabolism has increased and yeah, it took me a couple of days to stop crying about it and I just feel like I'm getting stronger. So that's been working. Let's see how long I can keep up with that. 
  
 Another one, okay, this list is getting long, I realize, but I'm trying to eat less junk food and get this smaller portion sizes in general. That's actually been really hard for me. If you grew up with me or you're my husband, you'll have witnessed the portion sizes that I eat. Anyway, I always have more energy when I don't eat portion sizes meant for a family of six. Go figure.  
  
 Oh, okay. This is a fun one. I think it's fun too-- I have commitment issues for a lot of things, but this is perfect. I like fitting in new things that I know like there's a start and end and I can get on board, but I know like it's not something I have to commit to forever and ever. I don't know why my brain works better just knowing like, oh, okay, I'm probably-- maybe it's about that good feeling you get from completing something. So you're like, okay, I can do 10 sessions, and then I'll feel great. But if it's like 1,000, I'm like, that's overwhelming. 
  
 Okay. So this week I started this 10 by 10 by 10 yoga practice created by my guest today, 10 days, 10 classes, 10 minutes with Estelle. Small but big acts. This really can help set the tone for your day. So I signed up. It was easy and affordable and I get this reminder email at 6:00 AM every day for 10 days in a row inviting me to do yoga with Estelle for 10 minutes. It's delightful. Yeah.  
  
 So those are just a few of the things-- a lot, actually, I don't know why I said a few-- that have been helping me feel more, I don't know, just more consistently good and stronger physically. My mood's been up. I've been sleeping better. Yeah. And exciting news, I've probably mentioned it, or maybe I haven't. I don't know. I'm heading to Austin, Texas in a few days for two weeks. I'm going to eat, fuck my way through all the vegan restaurants and taco stands in that city. I cannot wait.  
  
 I'm really excited to reconnect with old friends from when I lived there in the early 2000s and listen to live music. I'll be a student at a songwriter's retreat, two days with Darden Smith and Mary Gauthier. I've never done a songwriters workshop, so I'm really looking forward to that. When I get back, I'm going to let you all know how it went in one of the introductions for a future podcast episode. 
  
 My guest today brings a smile to my face every time I see a post of hers on Instagram. I mention in this episode the CBC documentary called Tommy Tinker Forever Estelle's journey of grief and love about her son Tommy, who passed away. It's an incredible story, so you can find that online. Google it. It's beautiful.  
  
 Estelle has her master's in counseling psychology. She is a leading yoga teacher and educator in the intersecting fields of expressive arts, embodied movement, and psychology with over 10 years of experience. Her work explores the relationship between breath, body, emotions, imagination, and play. Very important. We forget to play in our lives. 
  
 She's also a faculty member of-- this is really cool-- Quantum University, internationally recognized for offering online courses and graduate degree programs in holistic, alternative, natural, and integrative medicine. She leads numerous lectures, workshops, retreats locally and internationally. Her website is a plethora or plethora, however you prefer to say it, of resources from yoga to grief retreats and conversations with other remarkable women.  
  
 On her podcast, she quests, so drop her a visit on her website. It brings me great pleasure to imagine that you are all clapping your limbs and cheering with excitement and welcoming my guests today on a Chat with Heart Podcast, Estelle Thomson.

Estelle: [00:09:35] Do you want to know the story of my studio? Just by the way, just thank you for having me on. I feel so honored to be asked.

Christina: [00:09:43] Yeah, you're what we call a get in this business. So I appreciate your time.

Estelle: [00:09:52] But I'm making note. I am a get.

Christina: [00:09:54] That's right. Yeah. You're a get. Yeah, I got you. And I would love to hear the story of your studio. Absolutely. Go for it.

Estelle: [00:10:05] Yeah, I love that story. It's a story with heart, and because your podcast is called a Chat with Heart, then--

Christina: [00:10:14] That's right. It's perfect.

Estelle: [00:10:15] So when we first moved here, I would paint in our basement, which was really dark. And yeah, the lighting was awful. There was dust everywhere but that was the place I had. So I used it and then we had an extension. I'm actually on top of my garage here. So we had an extension then to our house and this top was empty.  
  
 And eventually, we were like, okay, that's going to be the rooms for the kids. We have like kid room in here and it's all set up the way it's set up. I'm not showing you. Nobody can see. But there's a space for a bathroom, anyways-- 

Christina: [00:10:58] It's large, like a loft space and I see some windows in there.

Estelle: [00:11:07] Yeah. I lost faith and now it's all white but it was all wood before. And so we had our son Isaiah and I would trickle my things in because there was so much more space. And then suddenly this studio became like a mishmash. And because it was not done, I could splatter paint everywhere. It was this really messy, grungy, this really raw space and really fond memory of having my son on the carrier and painting and I would do my yoga in here because it was perfect, like so much space.  
  
 And then I had my second son Tommy, and then him too, we all would hang out in the studio, and then as you know my son, Tommy, passed away. So then we weren't going to do rooms up here because then we have another room upstairs. So then I just claimed it as my own. I was like, "Fuck this shit."

Christina: [00:12:10] That's so great. And you have all those great memories with Tommy and Isaiah in that early phases of this room, this space that became where you basically make so much of your art. And during the pandemic you did a lot of free yoga sessions from there, am I right?

Estelle: [00:12:31] Yes. And you were taking them, some of them. So anyways, to continue on, this became-- basically it was called the studio from the beginning, but now it's like Mom's studio, like Mom's cave, basically. And then I was trickling things in there. And then the CBC called and they were like, "Do you want to do a documentary with all the writings you've been doing about grief?" And I was like, "Yeah." And then they were like, "Oh, by the way, we'll film in your house." And I was like, "Shit." 
  
 So then I was like, "Okay." And it was so good, Christina, because it made me up a level. It was like, "Okay, get your shit together. This is your workspace. It needs to represent who you are." And it was such a great kick in the bum to be like, "Okay, let's renovate." And it's still not like-- but it's my space. And you were asking about the why before. Because my art is so colorful and vibrant and neon, I find it helps. It was either going to be all black or all white.  
  
 And I find there's something about white that's very purifying and clear and holy about it. And then you can really see the painting on a white wall instead of it being messy. So that was the inspiration behind it. But everything else in the studio beside the wall is pretty, pretty colorful. But the studio holds a lot of like-- I love that I claimed that as my own throughout. And even now I'm just like, "Oh, that would be funny that there'd be bedrooms in here."

Christina: [00:14:16] Yeah, yeah, I could see it though. You could probably put at least five different quadrants. Basically, it could be an apartment. You never know, someday--

Estelle: [00:14:29] Let it be known, I do not want to have that many kids.

Christina: [00:14:33] Right. But maybe Isaiah, it could be his apartment when you're in your 90s, 120 and you need support.

Estelle: [00:14:42] Yeah. No, he's going to go downstairs. I'm still going to be painting and doing yoga when I'm like 100 years old.

Christina: [00:14:48] Good. I like that attitude. Oh, my gosh. Tommy Tinker Forever. Guess who watched it, like, four times?

Estelle: [00:14:56] Stop.

Christina: [00:14:57] Yeah. Dale and I watched it again last night, and I cry a lot when I watch it. It's so beautiful. And dealing with grief, I think what I've done is I've chosen a life to live that is like I'm processing by just living this life. But there's still some stuff that I think I haven't really processed. Or maybe it's just that when I see something beautiful, the way you've expressed your grief and life and love in the work that you do, and with Tommy Tinker Forever, it just makes me cry. And it's like a good cry. I hope it makes sense. It makes sense that you're a grief therapist specialist.  
  
 It really does. Really, really does. And I appreciate that's something that people can go to your website and they can find so many free tools as well as paid tools if they choose to help them process a really difficult transition. All that to say, stunning project, Tommy Tinker Forever. Oh, my goodness. How did you feel when that was launched into the world?

Estelle: [00:16:24] Christina, first, just thank you so much for watching it and watching it not once, but like four times. Yeah, that project, so where are we in? It was like in 2018, that's a while ago. That's four or five years ago and I still get messages all the time. That's something I'm so proud about it, like how timeless it feels how-- and I think, we'll watch it 20 years from now and be like, yeah, I can still relate to that. That project it's always been bigger than me, a lot of things that I put out in the world, there's such a big why behind it. 
  
 But I remember when I started to write my grief posts, there was no why around it. It was strictly so really selfish when I started to write these things. I wasn't thinking about my audience. I wasn't thinking about anything. But it was this really obsessive and needed to come out. This was given to me. Losing my son was given to me. So it was like, okay, how can I make something out of this thing that's been given to me? This karma, like, that's mine. 
  
 Obviously, that's my story and my kid. I didn't want this. And the way that I understand the world is through images and symbols and colors and that's the way I was trying to understand grief, which is not a mind thing, but a heart thing, and a body thing. And crying as you mentioned, crying is so beautiful. It's such incredible permission.  
  
 And also, crying is processing. You said something so beautiful. I know I'm still processing. Well, every time we cry, we process something. And I always say to my students, like, crying is like eating. It feels awful. I think it's like Glennon Doyle who said that once and I carry it with me because it sucks just stop mid-flow, Like, just eat.  
  
 And lately, I've been noticing that last year I feel I've like, ended a cycle. I don't know if you understand when I talk like that, but like I finally like-- and it's not like I'm over, but something was like it was such a hard year for me last year. And in grief, sometimes you're like, "Wait, am I healed?" And then you're like, "Shit, I'm back to where I was. No, I'm okay." And then, "Oh, no, I know I'm back."

Christina: [00:19:26] Yeah, I do understand.

Estelle: [00:19:28] Yeah, and last year, it was such a hard year. I don't know, a lot of heaviness and a lot of tests, so many tests. And this year, I feel so much lighter. And then I was reflecting on this at the New Year's, and I was like, "Holy shit." I feel I ended something. And the documentary had a lot to do with it. And I think it wasn't as cathartic as I think people think it was for me. That's one of the main question, I got like, "It must have been so therapeutic to do that." 
  
 And yes, it was. And then another and I think you'll understand this as like a performer, where I had to take a step back and be like, okay, does this make sense? And put more of an artistic eye on it where it's like I love to do it's like part of the creative process, but like did it have an arc?  
  
 Did it have those technical things which like, I couldn't process my grief when I was thinking about these things? And a lot of the script, I had already written the script in a way because I had so much material to pull from. So it was just literally like, I have this picture. I love that so much. It was like, I print out all my Instagram posts. There was like 400 pages, and I put them all on the carpet. And that's a lot. I did my whole undergrad degree and my master's that way. That's how I learn. It's like I have to look at the big picture.

Christina: [00:21:00] Yeah, yeah.

Estelle: [00:21:01] And I would literally pull some of this stuff and be like, "Okay, this is episode one, this is episode two, episode three." But yeah, of course,  some of the parts were like cathartic, this moment when I'm lying on the butterfly and we were doing this for reel and I only have one shot literally to do it. And I'm like, in the butterfly. And we hadn't staged any of that. I didn't know what I was going to paint. It wasn't like I'm going to paint a butterfly.

Christina: [00:21:29] I wondered that. I was like, I wonder if she knows she has to end up with a butterfly because that's probably what I would have done. I would have been like, "I have to end up with a butterfly."

Estelle: [00:21:38] When I look at that shot, often I'm reminded of an Olympian for some reason, like an athlete. I feel emotional thinking about it. But all these years of building to that point it was like a peak moment for me where it's like both abstract, but both like I have expertise too, and he was like, so it was like a part that I control, but a part I didn't control. That deep, deep mastery of a craft.  
  
 Sometimes I think, I don't think I'll ever do something that beautiful ever again because it was so [inaudible] to my soul and I love that moment. I don't know if you watched it yesterday, but it's like before, I'm going around the painting and I'm looking at it.

Christina: [00:22:31] Yes.

Estelle: [00:22:32] For me, it's the same as an athlete preparing before a game, visualizing it like an actor rehearsing their lines, like a musician tuning their instrument, and it's like, what is the message here that I'm trying to convey? I can talk to you about these things, but like creativity, for me, it's such a high. Again, it's like that idea where there's something you control about your craft, but there's something you don't control. Like now that butterfly is in the yoga studio that I teach at and every time I look at it, I'm like, "No, I did not do that. I didn't."

Christina: [00:23:11] You did that. You did that. It took me a long time to really pay attention to those moments where, like you said, you have training in the arts and visual arts and movement. So you've got all this training, but then you show up to do the work. But you have to have faith, which comes maybe in time after witnessing it, like in this higher power source. I don't know, whatever you want to call it, because something does take over If you let yourself let go and trust in that you have the training and there's something else at play as well.  
  
 And then even like we rehearse all the time and there's just nothing that compares to the live show experience where spontaneity happens, magic happens, or even with songwriting, a lot of the times I'm writing, I call like garbage. And then every now and then, as long as I show up, something moves through me or I'm there to catch this idea or something.  
  
 And it's something that ends up making it to an album or a live show. And you mentioned that in Tommy Tinker Forever, too, like showing up, you got to show up, and otherwise how will you know? It was like every 5 seconds you said something that just pushed a button in me and I was like, "Oh my God, she does really gets it."

Estelle: [00:24:50] Well, that's the way I understand the world is through images and art. Art is life for me. It's literally survival. I'm not afraid to say it. I would be dead if I didn't have art and yoga in my life. After my son passed away, I literally wanted to take a scissor into my heart. And it wasn't just like physical pain. The pain was psychic, energetic. So it was the biggest betrayal. It was not a gentle awakening.  
  
 And the thing that hurt the most for me was that I was already doing the work, I was already spiritual, I was already positive psychology, positive summations, and all this. And so I felt so betrayed by that. I was like "Universe, I was being a good girl here. Why are you giving me this?" And I don't want this.

Christina: [00:25:56] Do you think there's a support group? There must be spiritual teachers like you where they can vent about the fact that the rest of the world thinks that their lives are perfect, even when they go through tough times. Like, is there a support group for you? Because that is common-- I think people-- of course, we're all putting out our best foot forward or whatnot, or when you are posting things, it's not necessarily you bawling or falling apart or saying all the negative things that have taken over you for that time.  
  
 So all people see and know is like, oh my gosh, it's Estelle. Look at what she's done with-- and it's great. And it's great because I think it shows people that things can change and look at look what this person went through so hard and now look at the life that they're living. And so that is obviously very positive. But it must be annoying when some people just assume that you're just doing great all the time.

Estelle: [00:26:59] I'm just born this way.

Christina: [00:27:01] Yeah. Yeah. 

Estelle: [00:27:07] Yes, yes.

Christina: [00:27:10] Yes, yes.

Estelle: [00:27:11] Yes. But at the same time, how can I answer this? I have a lot of compassion. I think maybe what I'm trying to say is like, I know I'm not for everyone and I'm okay with that. I didn't get much backlash after Tommy Thinker Forever. It was really like I was shitting my pants the week before.

Christina: [00:27:33] Yeah. What would you get backlash for? I wouldn't think of any--

Estelle: [00:27:36] Oh, God. Do you want to know?

Christina: [00:27:38] Well, if you feel comfortable sharing, absolutely. Because this is a gossip podcast. No. But what the fuck would be-- What kind-- okay. I'm curious because I shouldn't be judgmental.

Estelle: [00:27:51] Now, you know what? I only got one thing and I was like, "Oh my God." As you can imagine, I was so crushed by it. But seriously, like 99.9% of the thing, it's incredible, Christina, the documentary is shown in nursing school now, and in social work school, psychologists email me all the time. They use it for their patients that are going through like, all this is just like, this is us taking on like a world of its own. That's not me. And the same thing with a song, you release it in the world, and like, who knows what it does? And it's almost like at this point, it's not even like your job anymore. 
  
 But I had somebody randomly email me, and I thought it was really interesting that she took the trouble to actually find my email. And she said she said, "I can't believe you see yourself as-- I watch you in Tommy Tinker Forever, and I can't believe you see yourself as a visionary." She was like, oh yeah, Like Gandhi and Mother Teresa are visionaries, but like, you. And I was like, "Oh, my God."

Christina: [00:29:05] Oh, wow. Wow. Nice lady.

Estelle: [00:29:08] And actually, my best friend is named, and so I called her right away, completely bawling, like you wouldn't freaking believe. And I took it to like a bestie would. And do you know what she said?

Christina: [00:29:21] What?

Estelle: [00:29:22] I'm going to fucking kill that bitch.

Christina: [00:29:25] I love it. I love it. Did you write back?

Estelle: [00:29:29] I wrote back, but I knew I wasn't going to send it to her. I wrote back. And get this, it's like it's not my problem she doesn't see herself as a visionary. For me, artists are visionaries. You need to be able to envision your life. That's how I saw it. Not that I'm like a Mother Teresa. That's not the way I use visionary. I have visions all the time. That's literally how I work in my business. I have visions and I hope they will come true. Some of them do, some of them don't. So that's more as a writer, as a yoga teacher, I feel I'm a visionary.

Christina: [00:30:19] Yeah, I feel you are, too. Yes.

Estelle: [00:30:22] Yeah. But I think we all have a different way to intuit things in our lives. Some-- maybe you, Christina, because the sound is so for you, and that's not for me. So for me, it's my vision. I see things and then I put them and a lot of my art is confessional. It's like a painting and then there's words to it just like the documentary was a moving piece of that. And yeah, so I wrote her back and at the same time, it took a lot of effort for her I'm sure to send me this email.

Christina: [00:31:03] This doesn't excuse the action at all, but this person must be fucked up, like, must have some pain or something.

Estelle: [00:31:13] Yeah. And when I was writing back I was like, I'm not going to send it back because I'm also coming from a place of hurt. She hurt me, so then I want to hurt her. And I was like-- and I'm catching myself so much like this past year. Be like, okay, if I text right now, this is going to be passive-aggressive and just to catch myself and be like, no. 
  
 And I didn't reply to her. And again, it's like, it's okay. I'm not for everyone. I'm okay with that. And it was such a great test for me because you're an artist. You're so vulnerable, putting yourself out there. And it's like, if somebody can't see the bravery in that, then it's fuck them. I don't want to be too blunt about it. I often tell that to my students, like, you have to be careful who you share your art with.  
  
 And I'd say there's a so-- you'd actually really, really get what you do. It's been a big work of letting my students come to me and to trust that I'll attract the people that need my teaching like me and my voice and need what I do. And I don't need to explain. The right people will come to me if that makes sense. And I get to be this great receiver and I have, and it's worked. If I think of my student shit, like, oh my goodness, the jewels I have in there and they are my greatest teachers. 
  
 And I don't know, the lady who wrote that email to me, she wasn't in my circle. Again, who knows? I always thought my son, like we were on a plane to Australia once and I think he was being really loud. I guess my husband and I were just so used to having him around, and it was like a long flight. It was like, I think a 12-hours flight. And at the 11th hour, the lady in front turned back and she was like, "Your spouse is going to shut up." And I'm sold out. We were like, oh, I'm like, freaking out.  
  
 And then, of course, Isaiah started crying. And I was like, we didn't even know. I wish she had said it an hour in the flight.

Christina: [00:33:37] Yeah, that was building up in her for 8 hours and she could have maybe said something. Yeah, that's what happens when you don't know.

Estelle: [00:33:46] Yeah. And then so I said to Isaiah, I said, "No, maybe she's going to a funeral." We don't know what's happening in her life. We're just trying to send her compassion. And then like, I'll be road raging on Main Street or something, and my son will be like, "Mom, we don't know. They might be on their way to her funeral." Oh, my God. There's a great book, Christina. I think it's called Shrill. Do I have it here?

Christina: [00:34:13] Oh, I've heard of that book I think.

Estelle: [00:34:14] It's so good. And actually, maybe I had just read that book because it's literally a story of a journalist who literally, the stuff that people would tell her, name calling and, oh my God, that was just in one email. And then one time, she basically had a conversation with one of her attackers. And the person started revealing to her everything that they were going through, like deep trauma stuff, and she became literally empathized with the person who was like--

Christina: [00:34:53] Well, I did a chat. I'm not sure when the episode is going to launch, but it's with my friend Jeff Douglas. And Jeff shares a story on that episode about a CBC listener writing in when he started a new show. And it was very much a personal attack felt like on him. And his response was to write back and then the relationship that unfolded was really actually very interesting positive. But the first email that he read from this listener did not feel great. 
  
 And I think I shared in that episode I received one nasty email once. I think it was a robot, but it just said, you're an ugly old hag. And I just laughed. And then I think I talked about it online because it was just so ridiculous. I might someday be an ugly old hag, but I don't think I am yet. And so I wrote back and I was like, "Thank you so much." That really made my day. 
  
 It was just a really funny comment. And then the response was this very short, like something bitch like. And I think I wrote back again and I was like, "Thank you again for making me laugh." It was just so absurd. I probably would have taken offense to it if it was a little more personalized. But I also think though, it's a good sign when you start getting hate mail. It means that you're really picking up speed in the public.  
  
 It's a sign of celebrity and not that it makes it easier to receive that information, but I'm like that right on that person's a celebrity now. Good for them. They're getting hate mail.

Estelle: [00:36:57] I 100% agree with that. And even to go back, let's say, to the subject of grief, I'm really careful. I never post diagrams of grief. And I really simplify things like grief is this and grief is not this and trying to put a number to it or statistics to it because grief is so nuanced. It's not black or white. It's gray. And I think it's impossible to agree with everyone. Then it's like nobody can have an opinion. I think it's so healthy to not-- even if you and I didn't agree on something, I wouldn't hate you.

Christina: [00:37:45] Oh, that's good. That's good to know.

Estelle: [00:37:49] Yeah. And you're right. It's like, "Oh, I really triggered that person somehow." Yeah. And again, to see it in another way, the people lashing out, like, oh my God, they're deeply hurt somehow.

Christina: [00:38:04] Could you imagine if you had offered them a 30-minute clarity call or a four-month breakthrough coaching session with you, which you do offer, by the way? And I'm curious, I want to know a little bit more about what that's like. I want to do it, and I bet there's listeners that would love to.

Estelle: [00:38:24] To be clear, I go through seasons of coaching a lot and then not coaching at all.

Christina: [00:38:28] Oh good. Yeah, yeah.

Estelle: [00:38:31] Yeah, one thing that's steady for me is I have Guide to Magic Life. It's my woman's circle. So that's been studied for almost five years now.

Christina: [00:38:39] And that is opening up for some--

Estelle: [00:38:44] In June. So it did close. Yeah, so I usually do twice a year and it's a closed group and then it's beautiful like soul ritual. So everybody that's in it we need like once, sometimes twice a month, and they have access to-- I have a meditation studio and a movement studio and a creativity studio. And my coaching, I actually usually do it on-- today we're Thursday. I usually do my one on one and my privates on Thursday.  
  
 And that is pretty wide. Sometimes I mentor yoga teachers that want to be independent just like I do. I teach in studio, but I teach for myself. I'm an independent yoga teacher, so I rent the rooms and people come to me. So usually teachers that want to start themselves doing that, they come to me and I help them do that.  
  
 And then other times, it's a lot around creativity and mother wounds. And so people come to me when they feel just really stuck, or a lot of what I get is, I feel dead inside. And I like that general malaise or they come to me and I know a lot of what we do is literally like mark making and just getting them back that little nudge of like you're imaginative and creative and you can play and you're curious and all these things that we've put in a closet because we're adult and we're supposed to be proper and orderly and clean and not messy. 
  
 And I'm really good at reminding people to play and to mess up and to not take themselves too seriously. And because we've been talking a lot about grief, I think that's important in grief as well. And it's one thing that really was so radical for me. I was such a perfectionist. I'm still a recovering perfectionist. But when Tommy passed away, it was like nothing made sense anymore. So I was like, "Why should my yoga practice make sense? Why should my rituals make sense?" 
  
 And that became so much more fluid for me in a way and letting myself be weird and bizarre and there's so much life around this because we think grief is stagnant and depressed and sad, but it's not. It's so wild. The energy of grief is like a hurricane, a spark of life. And that's a lot of my message like you said about the documentary. You're like, I'm crying, but it feels good after but it's like the exact feeling.  
  
 I remember being in the meeting room at the CBC and being like, okay, I don't want just this to be sad. I want this, and still, a lot of my friends haven't watched the documentary because they don't want to cry. And I'm just like--

Christina: [00:41:45] Oh.

Estelle: [00:41:45] But then they're like, I watched it and then I watched it again.

Christina: [00:41:49] I felt it was a celebration of everything, of life and death and what all that's natural. And it was really beautiful. Really, really-- well, yes. Watch it. Everyone watch it.

Estelle: [00:42:04] Yeah. And once we realize like the more that we let ourselves feel all the nasty it's like that's what expands us. It's like the pain doesn't get smaller. It's you that gets larger and bigger and wider and more magnetic. I literally feel so much more powerful because I've been through this and there's something in me. I know my spark if that makes sense.  
  
 I always think of my breath as my inner spark. It's like getting to know this fire inside me that's so passionate and so excited and spontaneous. And I'm such an enthusiast for life, it's because I cry a lot and it's because I give myself permission to be on my hands and knees and roll around on the earth.

Christina: [00:43:02] Can I read you a quote from something you wrote on one of your grief writing pages?

Estelle: [00:43:09] Yes.

Christina: [00:43:10] Okay. I hope I don't cry when I read this. Okay.

Estelle: [00:43:12] Well, you can cry.

Christina: [00:43:16] Okay. "Often, it's in my happiest moments that I feel the saddest. It's in my saddest moments that I feel the happiest. If I block happiness, sadness can't find me. If I block sadness, happiness can't find me. It's when I embrace all the memories, the sad, the happy, there I find equanimity."  
  
 For fuck's sake, is this copyrighted? Am I going to need to pay you a royalty? This is brilliant. This is gold. As I'm tearing up, it's not something that we're taught in school or when we were growing up. It's such a gift to learn that and to share that knowledge with people so that they know it's okay. It's actually okay to embrace it all and even though it's really uncomfortable to feel suffering.

Estelle: [00:44:18] Can you imagine, Christina, when you were a little girl and I don't know, God bless my parents, but I was sent to my room when I was having a tantrum or crying. Even in my teenage years, they were like, "Go to your room." Because I was such an intense and I still am. I'm proud of that, how intense and emotional I am.  
  
 And I went to theater school because I was like, I'm good at being emotional. So a lot of us repress that like over and over again. It's not safe to feel and actually go feel in your room by yourself when like we can't see you because we're uncomfortable with how you're dealing with this.  
  
 It's not even about you. It's about them. So imagine if we would have let ourselves, like have a cry out in the living room where everybody could see us and witness us. I'd say like the core of all my coaching program and guide to our magic life, it's this element of gently being seen. And I'm saying gently because sometimes it takes exposure. I have some of my students, it took them two years before they got the screen on their Zoom.  
  
 They were finally ready for everyone. And it's like to be a place where it's like, you can do that if you want. And actually, you can choose. A lot of women don't know how to choose. They don't know what they like. And I was the same after I had my kids, I went on a yoga residency in France. I forget what year it was, I think 2016, '17, and the first morning, Christina, I got in the bakery, I fucking did not know what I wanted for breakfast. I was like, "Do I like croissants? Do I like sugar lots?"  
  
 It was so simple, but it was like, I've been so bought. I've been so consumed with everybody else's needs, and now I don't know my own needs. How freaking fucked up is that? And then it's like, okay, but what do I need? But we've been suppressing this for so long and it's like, oh, the mixed signal, I don't know what I need. And the same with that yoga practice, it's like, what do you need in that moment?  
  
 Do you need small hip circles or wide hip circles? Stop looking at me. Look within. And there's a lot and there's no right or wrong way to do things. There's no right or wrong way on your path to having a spiritual life or a god of your own understanding. So there's not one path. There's your path. There's a quote by Louts who I love so much "I know the way of all things by what is within me." 
  
 Which begs the question, what is within me? And so I've been so proud of the way I teach has not very much changed from me when I was a child. I'm really so proud of that. Obviously, not all of what I teach is that, but a lot of it is inner child work and just being crazy and lip-synching.

Christina: [00:47:43] I love it. Yeah. Unless you're lip-synching experience as a child was traumatizing-- in grade three, I lost to my brother, and I totally had a whole routine, Whitney Houston. I was lip-syncing. This is a serious competition, of course, in my whole elementary school from grade 1 to 6. So grade one students were competing against grade six students, which they seem like the gods of the world at the time. And I had this whole routine to Whitney Houston. Oh, my goodness, (singing)"I try to phone, but I'm too shy. I can't speak. Falling in love." What is that song? How Will I Know? How Will I know?

Estelle: [00:48:30] How Will I know, Daddy?

Christina: [00:48:33] Yeah. So I had this whole dance routine that I had been practicing, memorizing, and all that. And then, of course, I didn't understand that there was a thing called stage fright when you're actually or like red light syndrome when you're on. And I had no experience coping with that because it was literally my first time on stage and everything. I was like 12 seconds behind all when the moves were supposed to happen. So it was pretty embarrassing.  
  
 But anyway, I think I came in third place, but my brother came in first. He was doing that song, Take Out the Papers in the Trash, but all he did was stand in one place and just do this movement. Anyway, I'll probably edit this out. But anyway, the topic of fun though, I see you having so much fun with your retreats and your families with you sometimes. So I know this year, you have a sold-out retreat in El Salvador, is that right?

Estelle: [00:49:29] Yes. Yes. We're going to El Salvador. It's my first time running a family-friendly retreat. My husband is a big surfer and I was like, how about we just try doing a family? And that's actually something that my students would say, I would come back because they can't bring the kids, then they can come. So I was like, "Okay, how about the kids?"

Christina: [00:49:53] Oh, good one.

Estelle: [00:49:55] Yeah. And it's this magical to land on top of a cliff that we found in El Salvador, super secluded beach, and great surfing. There's a yoga platform and we're going to do some art and yeah, that's in April. And then I have an Italy retreat the first week of June.

Christina: [00:50:18] That looks amazing.

Estelle: [00:50:20] That one, I'm being really selfish about that one. Yeah. I was like, "This is what's happening. This is what's it called?" And I just want women to be there and it's going to be some really transformational, radical, soulful, accelerated. Some great witchy stuff is going to come down.

Christina: [00:50:47] Ooh, witchy stuff. Oh, shit. Is there going to be an Ouija board?

Estelle: [00:50:53] Nope.

Christina: [00:50:54] I just bought one. It hasn't worked yet. But have you ever had to kick anyone out of your retreats?

Estelle: [00:51:02] No. No, I haven't. I think to come on one of my retreats, the El Salvador one is a bit different. The dynamic, obviously, of having family there, the art and yoga is going to be as magic. But I think the fact that you come back to your family will be interesting because I've never actually done a retreat with my family there.  
  
 But now I think I've done a few retreats now Costa Rica and France. And I think you have to feel called almost like come like it's not like, oh, should I come? Should I not? It's like I must go and experience this. So a lot of people that come there, they're always so impressed with that. They come so open and receptive and willing. There's a big willingness when you come on one of these retreats to be like, okay, I'm here to experience this fully. And unless you'd be dragged to one of my retreats, which rarely happens, it's never happened.

Christina: [00:52:04] So this is exciting. Well, you've done such a beautiful job at creating a working life that really encompasses all these your whole life. I don't know, like your experiences, your training, your experience with grief, and with being a playful, magical being.  
  
 And it's hard enough for a lot of people, as you said earlier, to decide on one thing and do that well. And so it's really remarkable to see this like a lifestyle brand that you've got going. And something for anybody who is seeking personal growth support, self-betterment, or anyone who wants to know how to live with all the emotions.

Estelle: [00:53:10] Yeah. I think we can get caught in like I'm bettering myself. I think once realized I don't want to fix me, I don't want to improve myself, I just want to switch from doing all the time to just being who I am, so that doesn't require me being a better person. It just requires me to almost unlearn a lot of things that I've thought about in my life.  
  
 And I think once you start doing that, it doesn't feel right. But that's because, like any time you start something new, you're like, "What am I? What's happening?" And then just learning a new song or whatever, it's like, "Wait, does this sounds okay?" Like da da da, until you're like, okay, this is the song.  
  
 And then moving on to another song because even now, if I look back in hindsight, I didn't choose what I'm doing. It choose me. And so I'm really proud of, I feel so aligned in my, I guess, my sole purpose. And at the same time try to not have, Liz Gilbert calls it purpose anxiety. 

Christina: [00:54:30] I love that.

Estelle: [00:54:31] I think a big part of me sometimes it's like, "You don't have to impress people." The only person you have to impress is your four-year-old self and your 98-year-old self. And yeah, you talked about Instagram and all that, but my rule of thumb on Instagram, it's that if it moves me it might move other people, and then fine, posts. 
  
 And then again I don't need to be understood. That's not in my rulebook. If you understand, fine. If you don't, fine, skip, unfollow. And then at the same time, there's a lot of freedom in that to do it, that is it easier life to live? I don't think so. But is it mine? It's truly mine. I'm getting emotional, but it's like the life I truly want to live. I'm not looking at my life. You're like, "Who's living this life?" 
  
 It's like, oh my God. It's my life. It's the life I want to live. And I feel this for life. And it's not just like, yeah, my son passed away, but there's a lot of other shit that's gone on since then, and a lot of more people have passed away in my life. A lot more things-- life goes on. And so how can I work this and again integrate it and make more space for it and expand through it?  
  
 And for me, the body has been this great portal of wisdom and stories and symbols and I get to move it. Oh my God, I get to move it and dance with it. I get to make art with it and stories and I'm just so grateful to have even this space, the studio, from the beginning of the episode, but to get to do all this and have my space, and to share it with other women who get it.

Christina: [00:56:33] Yeah.

Estelle: [00:56:33] Because they inspire me too, you inspire me too. I love hanging out with you. I love hanging out with anyone who's privy to just creativity and spirituality and the value of it.

Christina: [00:56:49] Oh, yeah. And you share so much of these experiences and shared experiences on your podcast, She Quest, which I was so lucky to be a guest on. And I really encourage anybody who love this chat to check out She Quest. 
  
 Oh, I have another wrap question for you. And it's okay if you don't have the answer to it, because this is a hard one, trying to figure out what you want. And if you've done all these big things in your life, you've dreamed, you've lived the dreams and it's hard to dream bigger. Sometimes we're just like, actually really happy. I'm good. I'm actually really good. I could just keep my health and my relationships healthy.  
  
 But do you have either a place that you haven't been to that it's on your bucket list or something that you like to do that is on the horizon for you to try to?

Estelle: [00:57:57] Oh, I have so many things going on right now. I'm a year and some into a fashion design diploma. So I had a big awakening. I was turning 40 in September and so that summer. I'm going to turn 42. But anyway, I was like, what is one thing in my life that I've always wanted to explore? And it was like fashion design.  
  
 So I'm doing it super slow because I don't want to like overpower or anything that I'm already doing. But I would love, of course, a yoga line, like a yoga clothing line and dresses, flowy dresses, very feminine things. So that's in the future.  
  
 And then I love to study Goddesses. I don't know something about me, but a lot of what I teach is like female embodiment and shock the powers, and yeah. And there's one place, I went to India in 2020 with a group of women, and it was like a goddess pilgrimage. And that same woman is bringing a group in Nepal in 2024, and she's literally hiking through Malaysia.  
  
 Then I'm like, oh God, really? Really bad to do this, but the Goddess taught me so much and the descent of ourselves and how to go into the deeper realms. And again, I just love mythology and they're like, there's something in our bones. So I'm eyeing that right now.

Christina: [00:59:42] Okay.

Estelle: [00:59:44] I'm eyeing Nepal right now because I'm traveling so much this year. I'm not doing any retreats in 2024. So usually the year I don't do retreats I go on my own. So I need to walk my talk.

Christina: [01:00:01] You got to fill up the tank. You got to fill up the tank and recharge. This is so great. You're wonderful. I'm so glad that we ran into each other on that plane ride back from Europe when the world stopped and we were on the last plane home to Canada from Europe.

Estelle: [01:00:23] And we were like, "Here we go."

Christina: [01:00:24] Here we go. And I was like, I know this girl.

Estelle: [01:00:29] And I was like, "Yeah," it was like March 15. I remember. Oh, my God. Yeah. That was so great.

Christina: [01:00:35] Yeah, it was an adventure. That was an adventure in itself being called back to Canada thing. But I'm so glad that that happened because you cross paths with people when you least expect it and you realize, oh I really needed that. And then it led us to this moment.

Estelle: [01:01:00] And thank you for this space. I think we need more of these spaces where we can chat with heart. And I think we crave this like sometimes I forget actually like I'm in my woman's circle, and then I go out in the real world. I'm like, "All right, we don't talk like this."

Christina: [01:01:21] Great. I know.

Estelle: [01:01:24] Well, that's the weather and like--

Christina: [01:01:26] It's hard for me too because I pride myself on just trying to always be myself. And I am still trying to figure that out. But we're lucky in that we have our line of work. We can be authentic, we can be ourselves, on the stage, people expect me to be that representation, to be someone who's trying to be authentic. Trying or not trying. It can be hard because you're raised--

Estelle: [01:01:57] You are so funny. I've seen you on stage. I pee in my pants.

Christina: [01:02:01] It's hit or miss. It's hit or miss. Yeah, but thank you so much for saying that. I love it. We're doing a couple of shows. I haven't done a lot of shows, obviously, since the pandemic started. But getting back into it, we have three shows this month, small ones and I'm nervous. But I'm also like, I really need to do this and it's going to be great. And as soon as I start singing and then just be yourself, just be yourself, that's all people want.  
  
 But being yourself can be hard too, sometimes. Which version of myself shall I be today? But anyway, this is great. I won't keep you. I want to keep you forever, but that would be super selfish. You might start to resent me. I'm so bad at saying goodbye at parties and stuff. I will literally just slip out because I'm so bad at goodbyes, or I used to just hang up on my friends because I just--

Estelle: [01:03:07] I can't say goodbye.

Christina: [01:03:08] I can't do this. I hang up. And then it was--

Estelle: [01:03:11] Yeah, Christina, I'm going to be on a high from our conversation for weeks to come now, and really privileged to be in your presence. And thank you for your work and thank you for having me. And I love you so much.

Christina: [01:03:26] I love you, too.

Podcast theme song 'I Don't Want to Say Goodbye to You': [01:03:36] (Music playing in the background) It's love. I don't want to say goodbye to you. Oh, I don't want to say goodbye to you.

Heartbeat Hotline: [01:03:52] Welcome to the Heartbeat Hotline, 1-902-669-4769. I'm the host of a Chat with Heart podcast, Christina Martin, and I'm so excited you called. Leave me your question, suggestion for the podcast, or a comment about this episode. Please be aware your message may be used on the podcast and social media. Tell me your name, where you're calling from, and it's also fine if you want to remain anonymous. Thanks for listening. Have a great fucking day.

Heartbeat Hotline: [01:04:24] Yeah. Christina and Dale, I use my lawn mower but mustard wine is full of shit.

Christina: [01:04:40] Thanks for listening to a Chat with Heart Podcast, produced and written by me, Christina martin, and co-produced and engineered by Dale Murray. Check out Dale's website, dalemurray.ca. The podcast theme song, Talk About It and I Don't Want To say Goodbye to You, were written by me and recorded by Dale Murray. You can find my music on Bandcamp and all the places you stream music.  
  
 Visit my Patreon page to become a monthly or yearly supporter of this podcast and my music endeavors. If you're new to Patreon, it's a membership platform that helps creators get paid. Sign up at patreon.com\christinamartin. I would love it if you had time to share, rate, leave a review, and subscribe to a Chat with Heart on all the places you listen to podcasts. Wishing you, my Little Heartbeats, a great day.